1 Yet a mooselimb in the other thread, accuses the U.S of making Afghanistan a hell hole, it just shows you the Islamic ideology also shorts out all logic from the brain.

2 Howie, this dovetails rather nicely with the post I just made about the upcoming suicide bomber movie. Is anyone else reminded of that "the Mafia doesn't exist" period we went through in the eighties?

3 It is a hideous religion that would kill a man, a Muslim no less, who has done nothing more than try to educate girls so they can help themselves out of poverty. I'm waiting for the moderate Muslims to condemn this murder and all murders committed in the name of Islam. I've been waiting a long time.

4 Amaad: Here's your chance to make Dave's day.

5 The Taliban have shown themselves once again to be cowards and scum of the lowest order. Despite the beatings and intimidation, this teacher was willing to stand firm and do what he thought was right and to help his country advance. That's courage.

6 "The Islamic teachings about jihad are what uproots oppression and guarantees people the freedom to think and to choose their religion for themselves without being under any compulsion. Islam seeks to have people freely submit themselves to their Creator and not be placed under the subjugation of any worldly dictator, race, tribe, or nationality" AMAAD 1/4/2006 Ya sure, you betcha. Dude, they cut dad's head off in front of his 8 kids.

7 I thought Muslims were not to imbibe in the spirits, yet Amaad makes a statement like that and claims to be sober. Now that's funny!

8 And it's not even Ramadan yet.

9 You'd have known about this two weeks ago if you read the Carnival of the Liberated over at Dean's World. I picked it up from an Afghan blogger on December 20.

10 Dave. You got me I did not read it. Sorry. Give me a heads up now and then and I'll link it. I think I need an RSS reader or a net surfing sponsor... Howie brought to you by Pioneer Seed! Get better yields and your choice of this green farmer's hoodie or this black insulated winter jacket with the pioneer logo. Ah I can see it now.

11 Par for the course, my friends. Any one surprised? Thought not...

12 Muslims are silly little children. Nothing more. The world should stop educating them and allowing them to leave their silly little cruel countries. Shun them. Piss on them.

13 Since we're too civilized as a nation to just nuke them into submission, as we rightfully should, and nor are we likely to purge the libtards from among us, we should at least exile all libtards to muslim countries, and prohibit mulsims and libtards from entering civilized countries upon pain of death.

14 Opium Poppy production up 264% since the US-led forces captured Afghanistan. WOMEN IN ISLAM Women and Their Status In Islam by Muhammad Adbul Aleem Siddiqui (R.A) Reproduced with permission from World Islamic Mission (Canada) History is silent as to whether there was any distinction in status between the male and the female sexes during the beginnings of human civilization. In later days no doubt the female sex was regarded as inferior to the male and the idea of inferiority developed to such an extent that the male sex not only claimed a complete superiority over the female sex, but further arrogated to itself the right to utilise and employ the female sex as it liked. Surveying the history of the world on this point we find that in pre-Christian Europe and Greece, which was the centre of light and learning for a long time and which provided philosophical and scientific inspiration to the Europe of later days, regarded woman as something definitely inferior to man. She was a subservient creature who had come into existence solely for the purpose of breeding citizens for the state and soldiers for the army. Their great dramatist Euripedes puts into the mouth of Medea the remark. "Women are impotent for good, but clever contrivers of all evils," Such degrading conceptions led to a moral.degeneration which ultimately ruined the Greek society. The names of virtuous women says Professor Lecky, scarcely appear in Greek history." (History of European Morals, Vol:ll p. 307). Conditions in Europe did not irnprove with the advent of Christianity. "Of the woman came the beginning of sin and the wickedness of man and through her we all die. " Consequently, Paul, the premier saint of Christendom, proclaimed: "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence, for Adam was first formed than Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in transgression." Other early Fathers were even more uncharitable and denounced women as "the lance of the demon," "the gate of the Devil," "the road of iniquity." "the sting of the scorpion," a daughter of falsehood, the sentinel of Hell," "the enemy of peace" and "of the wild beast, the most dangerous." Nay, they went still further. The Greek Orthodox Church denied that woman had a soul and at the Council of Macon, a Bishop vehemently asserted that a woman did not belong to the human species. (Westermarck, p.663) A council held at Auxierre prohibited women [from receiving] the Eucharist [with their bare] hands [or] to [go] near the altar during the celebration of the Mass on the ground that she was an "unclean thing". "I may define man," says Principal Donaldson (Woman, pp. 181, 182), "to be a male human being and woman to be a female human being . . . Now what the early Christains did was to strike the 'male' out of the definition of man and 'human being' out of the definition of woman. Man was [a] human being made for the highest and noblest purpose; woman was a female made to serve only. She was on earth to influence the heart of man with every evil passion. She was a fire[storm] continually striving to get alongside the male man-of-war to blow him up into pieces." In the Asian cradles of civilization [women were] no better off. Hinduism, which is the oldest among the present day religions of the world, laid it down: 'In childhood a female must be subjected to her father, in youth to her husband, when her husband is dead, to her sons; a woman must never be independent'. (Manu, V 140). "The legislator Man", says the celebrated Hindu scholar, Sir R. G. Bhandarkar,"is equally hard on women. It must be acknowledged that the estimate of the old Aryan of womanly nature is not flattering to them generally. They are debarred from reading the Vedas; any religious rite in which they alone are concerned is directed to be performed without Vedic Mantras. Even the Bhagavad Gita gives expression to the general belief that it is only a sinful soul that is born as woman, Vaisya or Sudra". (Collected Works, p. 46 1). In Buddhism, says the Buddhist scholar, May Oung, "the idea of wedlock and its attendant worldly life, is opposed to the ultimate and the annihilation of Desire, the striving for which must necessarily involve celibacy." (Buddhist Law, Par. 1, p. 2). In Buddhist ideology, therefore, according to the historian Westermarck,"Woman are, of all the snares which the temper has spread for men, the most dangerous; in women are embodied all the powers of infatuation which blind the mind of the world." In pre-lslamic Arabia, the general conception of womanhood was of such a degraded type that her very existence was considered ignominious for the family. Female infanticide was consequently practiced on a wide scale. Those women, however, who escaped early death were allowed to live only on sufferance. For, an Arab woman "had no rights; she could not inherit property; her person formed part of the inheritance which came to the heir of her husband, and he was entitled to marry her against her will. Hence sprung up the impious marriages of their sons with their stepmothers and others of an even worse character. . ." "Polygamy was universal and quite unrestricted; equally so was divorce at least as far as man was concerned; (Mohammed and Mohammedanism; Bosworth Smith; p 82) Such was the condition of the female sex in the world when Mohammed (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) the Saviour of womanhood, stood up in Arabia and, through the Divine Revelation of the Lord of the Universe Who created both the male and the female and Who loves them equally, preached to the world that : females were just like males have equal rights have equal honour equal status in life They were on no account to be treated as the property of the males. They have the right of ownership of property in the same way that males have, though, no doubt under the principle of the division, the female sex has some specialised duties to perform in life, just as the male sex has its own duties. There are three stages through which womenfolk will pass in life: (a) daughter (b) wife, and (c) mother. (a) DAUGHTER Islam denounces in unequivocal terms the pre-Islamic inhumane custom of female infanticide and commands people to love and cherish their daughters even more than their sons. The Holy Qur'an says that on the Day of Judgment, the female infant who was buried alive will be questioned: "For what crime wast thou murdered?" [Qur'an 81:8,9] Thus before the Almighty, the victim herself will be able to give evidence against those who killed an innocent creature of Allah simply for the sake of satisfying their vanity. Allah again commands humanity: "Kill not your children for fear of want. We shall provide sustenance for them as well as for you. Verily, to kill them is a great sin. [Qur'an 17:31] Fatimah was the youngest daughter of the Holy Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him). In dealing with her, he set an example of fatherly love which is a model for mankind. "Fatimah," he would say, "is a part of my being; whosoever annoys her annoys me" (Mishkat-ul-Masabih, XLIV:S) He also emphasized preferential treatment towards the female sex and said "When you bring anything for your children for distribution, begin with the girls first because the girls love their parents more than the boys." (b) WIFE Marriage in Islamic law is really a contract just like other civil contracts between two parties. As far as the conditions of the contract are concerned, both the parties, the man and the woman, stand upon the same level. Each party has certain rights and duties. Islam commands justice to be observed in every contract, and so in the contract of marriage too justice should be observed. The Holy Quran says: "The women have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable." [Qur'an 2:228] No doubt, under the principle of the distribution of labour, work should be divided between the pair. The womenfolk have naturally to take care of their offspring until they grow up. They have to engage themselves in bringing them up and so are not in a position to pay attention to securing their means of livelihood. The men, therefore, have been made responsible for maintaining the family, including the wife, and have been given the duty of securing all the requirments of the home. Thus we might say that in a Muslim home, the husband is supposed to work as the Minister for Foreign Affairs and the wife as the Minister of the Interior. The Holy Prophet is reported to have said : "A woman is the queen of her house." The Holy Quran describes the position of the wife in a beautiful verse, "He created for you mates from among yourselves that you might find solace in them and he ordained between you love and mercy," [Qur'an 30:21] The Prophet said: "The most perfect of believers in faith is the best of them in morals and the best of you are those who are kindest to your wives." In his famous Address at the Farewell Pilgrimage, the Prophet again laid stress on the good treatment on womenfolk. He said: "O my people, you have certain rights over your wives and so have your wives over you .... they are Allah's trust in your hand. See that you treat them with all kindness." Before this saviour of the female sex preached his Message, there was no limit for the males in respect of the number of their wives. Islam really imposed a limit and allowed plurality of marriage with the idea of abolishing adultery. Polygamy is permitted in place of illegal intercourse in cases where it becomes difficult or rather impossible ill the interest of social health to restrict marriage to strict monogamy. There are two definite occasions in the lives of human beings when polygamy becomes necessary. For example, if the marriage proves fruitless, the husband can, in most cases, be kept on the path of virtue and uprightness only by allowing a second marriage. Again, when there is a surplus of women, as happens after men have died in wars, human society can be saved from corruption and also extinction by the permission of marrying more than one wife. The Holy Quran restricts the number of wives to four and also orders complete equality and justice between them: "And if you fear that you will not deal fairly towards the orphans, marry of the women who seem good to you, two or three or four, and if you fear that you cannot do justice between them , then (marry) only one." [Qur'an 4:3] The conditions of the marriage contract are to be settled by the parties of the marriage. If, on the one hand according to the Islamic teaching, the husbands are entitled to have the right of divorce, the wives are also entitled to the right of fixing their dowry and niaintainence as they like, and they may also take the authority of separating themselves from their husbands when they find it necessary to do so. If agreement at a time of marriage is made with complete consideration, the parties stand practically at the same level and there remains no possibility for the womenfolk to suffer. Islam enjoins justice, equity and straightforwardness. Therefore if those who claim to be Muslims do not observe Islamic principles, then it is their fault and Islam can on no account be accused for that. If today people misuse the permission for polygamy and try to hide their lustftil actions under the cloak of Islamic legality, it is their fault and they deserve the most severe punishment at the Court of the All-Knowing Allah who knows what is in their hearts. (c) MOTHER As mothers, the status of women has been raised by Islam to such an extent that nothing higher is conceivable. The Holy Quran says: Your Lord has commanded that you shall worship none but Him and goodness to your parents. If either or both of them reach old age in your life, say not to them a word of contempt, nor repel them, but address them in terms of honour. And make yourself submissively gentle to them with compassion and say: O my Lord bestow on them compassion even as they cherished me in my childhood.[Qur'an 17 23-24] It is reported that when the Prophet was questioned by a disciple as to who after God and his Prophet should be revered most, the Prophet said "Your mother." When questioned "Who, after the mother?" The Prophet said "Your mother." He was again asked "And, then, who after the mother? " He again replied: "Your mother". The man put the question for the fourth time and the Prophet then answered: "Your father." This Tradition shows that the position of the mother in the eyes of her sons and daughters should be three times higher than that of the father. It is reported that once a disciple came to the Prophet and said "O Prophet Of Allah, on a hot day in the desert of Arabia, in the sunny noon when the stones and sands were burning like fire, my mother and I were travelling by foot without any shoes. I carried my mother on my shoulders so that she may not suffer the pain of walking bare-footed on the hot sands and stones. Could I pay the reward of the pains she had to bear in bringing me up?" The Prophet replied:"No, not even a fraction of the pain she suffered at the time you were born." In Islam the best action of worship is the performance of Pilgrimage to Mecca, i.e., the Hajj, and the reward to a person who performs the Hajj properly is that all his past sins are pardoned and he receives a high rank in the estimation of Allah. But in expressing the dignity of the mother, the Holy Prophet said: "One who looks at the face of his mother with sentiments of reverence and love once, is rewarded as if he had performed the Pilgrimage." The people asked him, what if he looked twice, to which he replied: "It is as if he had performed two Pilgrimages, and thrice, as if he had performed three Pilgrimages and so on. In this respect, the Prophet himself set a model for the world. Once Halimah, the lady who nursed him in his childhood came to see him. The Prophet was sitting with his disciples. As soon as he saw her, he stood up with reverence and spread his mantle on the floor and requested his foster-mother to take her seat there. It is quite evident from the above that the respect which a mother receives from her children in Islam is the highest to which no other wordly relationship can aspire. The doors of spiritual elevation are open to woman in the same way as they are open to men. They are commanded to educate themselves in the same way as the men, and if they attain a high position in learning, "Never will I waste the work of a worker among you, whether male or female. You are members, one of another."[Qur'an 3:195]. Afganistan is now a US country, maybe the fact that the Taliban did not allow the US to build a gas pipe through the country led to the invasion of Afghanistan. Ahmed Karzai will bow down to every request made by the American government. Muslims are the people that sort out all logic from the brain? The Islamic empire in the early 6th. centuries were the inheritors of the scientific tradition of late antiquity. They preserved it, elaborated it, and finally, passed it to Europe (Science p3). At this early date, the Islamic dynasty of the Umayyads envinced an interest in science. It was the century that were, for Europeans, the Dark Ages, were, for Muslim scholars, centuries of philosophical and scientific discovery and development. The Arabs at the time not only assimilated the ancient wisdom of Persia, and the classical heritage of Greece, but adapted their own distinctive needs and ways of thinking (Hitti 363). The Islamic ability to reconcile monotheism and science proofs to be a first time in human thought that theology, philosophy, and science were finally harmonized in a unified whole. Thus their contribution was "one of the first magnitude, considering its effect upon scientific and philosophic thought and upon the theology of later times" (Hitti 580). One of the reason for such development of science is probably due to God's commandment to explore the laws of nature. The idea is to admire all creations for its complexity - to cherish the creator for the ingenuity. Possibly holding to this believe, Islam's contributions to science had covered many roots of thought including mathematics, astronomy, medicine and philosophy. This paper will examine these roots of natural science, and unearth the contributions of the Islamic thinkers. Islam's redound to encourage into thinking was accessed by two other ancient cultures - the Persian and the Indians. They became part of the Islamic heritage in the field of mathematics (Hitti 373). About the year 600 A.H.-during the lifetime of Prophet Muhammad - an Indian Muslim mathematician developed the symbol "cipher" or zero and the system of placed notation. This invention, first mentioned in a Syriac text written in 662 AD, revolutionized the study of mathematics and made possible the great achievements of Muslim mathematicians (Science p4). Mathematical vocabulary such as "algebra" and "algorithm" are actually borrowings from Arabic words, that were later translated into Latin. It was a Muslim mathematician who formulated the trigonometric function explicitly. The word "sine" was actually the direct translation of the arabic word "jayb". An English mathematician Robert of Chester, who flourished in the middle of the twelfth century, was the first to use sinus equivalent to this Arabic jayb in its trigonometrical acception (Hitti 573). Al-Khwarizmi composed the oldest book on mathematics, known only in translation. He presented more than 800 examples of the calculation of integration and equation, later anticipated by Neo-Babylonians (Hitti 379)."As in trigonometry so in Algebra Muslims must be considered as the founders of this science whose very name reflects its origin... al-Khwarizmi... firmly established this branch of mathematics" (qtd. King 214). They introduced it with the Arabic numerals into Europe and taught Westerners the most convenient convention of arithmetic concept. "The zero and Arabic numerals lie behind the science of calculation as we know it today" (Hitti 573-574). In the first half of the ninth century, exponent numerals including the zero is used in preference to letters by al- Khwarizmi. In the second half of the ninth century, the Muslims of Spain developed numerals slightly different in shape, huruf al-ghubar (letters of dust), originally used in conjunction with a type of sand abacus. Leonardo Fibonacci of Pisa, who was taught by a Muslim master published a work which remain a landmark in the introduction of the Arabic numerals (Hitti 573-574). Early in the ninth century, mathematical calculations stimulates the crave for answers to the celestial motion. This curiosity introduces a new field of thought, called astronomy. One most important application of astronomy is the timekeeping for the time of the five daily prayers. These are defined according to the position of the sun moving from east to west. The earliest known tables for such purpose are dated from the tenth century (King 46-4 . As necessary to accurate timekeeping as tables are the instruments used by the Muslims: The magnificent sundial that ibn al-Shatir constructed in the year 1371/72 to adorn the main minaret of the Umayyad Mosque in Damascus. The sundial displays the time of day relative to sunrise, midday, and sunset and relative to the afternoon prayer. There are also special curves for times relative to daybreak and nightfall. Thus the sundial effectively measures time with respect to each of the five daily prayers (King 547). An individual by the name of Ibn al-Sarraj devised a series of astrolables, quadrants, trigonometric grids and other instruments which are innovative to the extreme. "I consider Ibn al-Sarraj's astrolable, which is universal from five different aspects, to be the most sophisticated astrolable from the Near East and Europe..." (King 544). Al-Khwarizmi, the genius mathematician, at the time applied his findings to the new field from which he composed the oldest planetary tables, or the zij (King 39, Hitti 379). His work serves as a reference text and were rendered into Latin in the twelfth century by Gerard of Cremona (Hitti 571). Among the first regular astronomical observatory tower constructed was in Jundaysabur, south west of Persia, under the direction of Sind ibn-'Ali, and Yahaya ibn-abi-Mansur. Being the Caliph's astronomer, not only that they construct a systematic chart of celestial movements, but also verified the fundamental elements of the Almangest (Hitti 373-375). The astronomers of al-Mamun, the Abbasid Caliph, made many original observations. One of the most outstanding is the measurement of the meridian near Mosul. It was found to be 111,814 meters, and measured a degree of latitude at about 36x north to be 2877 feet (qtd. King 214-215). "The object is to determine the size of the earth and its circumference on the assumption that the earth was round" (Hitti 375). In Spain, astronomical studies were cultivated after the middle of the tenth century. They reproduced the Aristotelian system, as distinguished from the Ptolemaic, the representation of celestial movements. Abu-al-Qasim Maslamah al-Majriti (of Madrid), the earliest Spanish Muslim astronomer edited and corrected the zij (planetary tables of al-Khwarizmi), the first tables composed by a Muslim. Among al-Majriti titles were al- hisab or the mathematician, for he was considered the leader in mathematical knowledge. About fourteen years later, the zij that of al-Battani, was rendered into Latin by Plato of Tivoli. Copernicus later quotes al-Battani in his book De revolutionibus orbium coelestium . Al-Zarqali (known as Arzachel in Latin West) the foremost astronomical observer of his age, deviced the safihah, a type of astrolabe, that prove the motion of solar apogee with reference to the stars (Hitti 570-71). Al-Bitruji, known as Alpetragius developed a new theory of stellar movement and wrote The book of Form in which it was detailed (Science p22 c3). Arab astronomers left the sky immortal traces of their findings. Not only are most of the star-names in European languages are of Arabic origin (The Worlds Almanac and fact Book p199 c2), but a number of technical term such as "azimuth" (al- sumut), "nadir" (nazir), "zenith" (al-samt) are of Arabic etymology. This testifies the rich legacy of Islam to Christian Europe (Hitti 573). The first of the Arabians, the rival indeed of Galen, was the Persian Ibn Sina, or better known as Avicenna. He was given the title 'the Prince of Medicine'. His most celebrated work is Al-Qanun Fil-Tibb or "the Canon of Medicine." He is one of the greatest names in the history of medicine. He could repeat the Quraan by heart when he was ten years old, and by twelve he had disputed in law and logic. He found that medicine was an easy subject, not hard and thorny (Osler 9 . "When I found a difficulty," he says, "I reffered to my notes and prayed to the creator" (qtd. Osler 9 . His book was long and lengthy, testifying many aspects of medicine. He classifies efficient causes and symptoms of diseases. He said that diseases are caused by the imbalance of the four elementary qualities of hot, wet cold and dry in the body. Those caused by the faulty composition or conformation of bodily parts, and those caused by trauma. The cause of disease is categorize as either connected by the environment, regimen, and psychology. Among them are the traditional scheme of "non naturals" from air, food and drink, repletion and inanition, to the passions of the soul. His book also discuss concerns for the conservation of health: separate sections on pediatric, adult, and geriatric regimen. Avicenna provides twenty one fen on ailments distinctive to each major organs of the body-arranged from head to toe. (Siraisi 21-22). The "Black Death", in the middle of the fourteenth century ravaged Europe while the Christians stood helpless. Ibn-al- Khatib, a physician of Granada composed a treaties in defence of the contagion theory and said: To those who say, "How can we admit the possibility of infection while the religious law denies it?" we reply that the existence of contagion is established by experience, investigation, the evidence on the senses and trustworthy reports. These facts constitute a sound argument. The fact of contagion becomes clear to the investigator who notices how he who establishes contact with afflicted gets the disease, whereas he who is not in contact remains safe, and how transmission through garments, vessels and earrings (qtd. Hitti 576). The circulation of blood and the idea of quarantine came from an empirical indication of contagion. It was discovered by Ibn al- Nafis. Ibn Juljul of Cordoba in 943 became a leading physician at the age of 24, compiled a book of special treaties on drugs found in al-Andalus, the Iberian Peninsula (science p23). Ibn-Masawayh wrote the oldest systematic treaties on opthamology. The book, titled al-Ashr Maqalat fi al-'Ayn (the ten treaties of the eye) was the earliest existing text book of opthmathology. In the curative use of drugs, some amazing advances were made by the Muslims. They have established the first apothecary shops, and founded the earliest school of pharmacy (Hitti 364). The Prince of Medicine, Avicenna, is himself a philosopher (Arabic falsafah). Philosophy at the time is defined as the knowledge of the true cause of things as they really are (Hitti 369). He is the first of the Arabic language who created a philosophical system which is really complete and whole (Khan 5). "It is noteworthy that Avicenna to his independent intellectual attainments was without undue modesty" (Fakhry 149). From his initial study of logic, he turned to the study of physics, and metaphysics entirely on his own. He became the mentor of many senior physician at the age of sixteen. By the age of eighteen, he had mastered logic, physics and mathematics, so there was nothing left for him to learn except to concentrate on metaphysics. His major philosophical treaties is Kitab al-Shifa or the Book of Healing , known in Latin by the title Sufficienta. It is an encyclopedia of Islamic-Greek learning in the eleventh century, ranging from logic to mathematics (Fakhry 149-150). Another greatest patron of Philosophy and science in the history of Islam is Caliph Al-Mamun. Son of Caliph Harun al- Rashid, he encouraged on holding disputes in court on logical, legal, and grammar (Rahman 182). He express with liberal mindedness, great openness and equanimity (Fakhry 23). He established in Baghdad his famous Bayt al-Hikmah (house of wisdom) (Rahman 4), a combination library and academy which in many respect is an important educational institution (Hitti 310). This library contains books on all subjects-literature, specifically Islamic sciences, natural sciences, logic, philosophy, an many other subjects of thoughts (Rahman 182-183). The greatest figure in the history of Islamic philosophy and reaction to Neo Platonism is Imam al-Ghazali - a jurist, theologian, philosopher and mystic. He said that the "Fiqh" is the daily bread of believing soul, while the doctrine is only as valuable as a medicine for the sick (De Boer 39). He also said that he is being seized by the desire for the truth. He resolved to search for a "certain knowledge" upon which the object known in manner is not open to doubt at all. So if the truth were to be challenged by a miracle-maker, it would withstand its claim - solid (Fakhry 244-245). Fundamentally, al-Ghazali affirmed an agnosticism about the ultimate and absolute nature of God. This need for religious certainty impelled al-Ghazali to mysticism, and led him back to the discovery of the Quraanic conception of God. This revealed nature of God is constituted by the Divine Names and Attributes (Rahman 95). The first genuine philosopher to write in Arabic was al- Kindi (Fakhry 9). He is the first peripatetic in Islam. He is related in many ways to Mutazilite Dialecticians and the Neo- Pythagorean Natural-Philosophers (DeBoer 97). He was a man of extraordinary erudition which communicated observations as a geographer, a historian of civilization and a physician (De Boer 99). Kindi is more than a philosopher. He was a chemist, an optician and a music theorist (Hitti 370). "He was in no respect a creative genius" (De Boer 99). The influence of al-Kindi as author and teacher is mainly through his Mathematics, Geography and Medicine (De Boer 105). The intellectual history of the Arabs which the development of philosophy and science in the Near East virtually begins with the rise of Islam. Islam not only provide the Arabs with bold world-view, but thrust them the cultural stage of the ancient world and set before them their scientific and cultural treasures. The first generation of Muslim scholars dedicated themselves wholly to the fixing of a canon based primarily on the Quran. This is because of the overwhelming sacredness of the Quraan and the traditions of Prophet Muhammad (Fakhry 1-3). To the Muslim scholars whose work is shown, the Quraan is the source of all knowledge - the revelation of God (Science 32). Many hints was given in the Quran as a prove of the All Knowing. God says: "Verily God Knows The secrets of the Heavens And earth:and God sees well all That ye do" (Quran 65:1 . Some of the hints that were mentioned are: "Do not the unbeliever see that the heavens and earth Were joined together (as one Unit of Creation), before We clove them asunder? We made from water Every living thing. Will they not believe?" (Quran 21:30). God phrase " Do not They Think...", in certain parts of the Quran after illuminating natural phenomena unthought of by man. Such hints enhanced man's curiosity and probably fueled their quest for knowledge. As the roots of knowledge has been established, the branches and leaves then flourished onto todays advance technology. Such roots must never be forgotten as without solid foundation, no pillars can be built and lived on. I COULD GO ON AND ON ABOUT THE MUSLIM MEN AND WOMENS CONTRIBUTION TO SCIENCE BUT THEIR WOULD BE NO POINT. I AM CONDEMING THIS MURDER IN THE NAME OF ALL MUSLIMS, HAPPY NOW JESUSLAND JOE? I WOULD LIKE YOU TO CONDEMN THE MURDER OF MUSLIMS IN PALESTINE, IN BOSNIA AND OTHER EASTERN-EUROPEAN COUNTRIES AND IN INDIA. We should all realize that terrorism is global not ISlamic. http://www.netmuslims.com/info/contributions.html If you think that Islam is not peacefull give me any verse in the qura'an or from the sayings of the prophet that justifies violence or denies the right of education for females. http://www.themodernreligion.com/comparative/christ/bible_precepts.htm Howie, how shall I make Dave's day? Too right Graeme the Taliban have shown themselves to be cowards and scums. I have no problem with truthfull, unbiased comments like that yet if you were to say that about Muslims that would be wrong as to the fact: my great-granfather was a strict muslim yet he opened the first all-female school, a boys school and a library in a town in Pakistan, he also opened schools in Qatar, Oman, Tunisia, Mali,India, Sri-Lanka and a few other countries. So is my great-grandfather not a mulsim because he worked for the betterment of countries, sjould he have been killed by the Taliban? Yes I was and still am sober when I made the statement Jesusland Joe. Oh well that sums up the whole debate apart from greyroosters comment; that just proves that 'SOME' people can't be talked into reasonable debate but the have to resort to crude language and childish comments. C U ALL AROUND

15 The worst enemies of Islam are from within - The Reverend Amos Brown said in no uncertain terms that America must ask herself what she has done either wittingly or unwittingly to incur the wrath and hate of people around the world. Muslims on the other hand, generally prefer to attack the West as the sole reason for their problems when the truth is we are bankrupt as a religious community and our spiritual bankruptcy has led to our inability to even deliver the message of Islam to Westerners in a time when they were giving us platforms to do so. In Pakistan We Have Selective Islam - The biggest factor that drove people like me away from religion was the selective Islam practised by most of its preachers. In other words, there was a huge difference between what they practised and what they preached. Also, rather than explaining the philosophy behind the religion, there was an over emphasis on rituals. I feel that humans are different; to animals whereas the latter can be drilled, humans need to be intellectually convinced. That is why the Quran constantly appeals to reason. The worst of course, was the exploitation of Islam for political gains by various individuals or groups. Muslims Silent While Muslims Die - The Muslim world has been exposed for its impotence, incompetent leadership, lack of Islamic honor, dignity, courage, and hypocritical support for Palestine, Chechnya, Kashmir, and even the Afghan refugees. Muslims Debate Diverging Loyalties - Muslims who urge their communities to engage in self-introspection are being labelled traitors, while protestors say too much public self-criticism will divide their community, play into the hands of those they call "Muslim bashers" and weaken their efforts to influence U.S. foreign policy Seeing with Both eyes, by Abdul Hakim Murad - The Dajjal, as everyone knows, has only one eye. Those ulema who are concerned to understand and apply their intuition rather than simply to act as historical relay stations have sometimes interpreted this attribute as a reference to the characteristic sickness of decadent religious communities; a sickness that will necessarily be at its most prevalent as the end of time approaches. The Dajjal represents, in human form, a cosmic possibility which occurs throughout history, gathering momentum as Prophetic restorations are forgotten, until, for a time during the last days, he is the one-eyed man who is king. Moving Beyond Theory - "In Islam, you..." "Islam teaches that the state is..." "A Fatwa issued by a scholar in..." There is always someone propounding on what Islam teaches, how Islam shapes our behavior and what Islam says about halal/haram issues. But we never seem to move beyond the theoretical. Stopping the onslaught of missionaries in Muslim Homes - The Christians are not the problem. The Muslims are the problem because they are failing their own people in the way of establishing permanent institutions for the teaching of Islam. Let's look at ourselves because we have no control over what the Christians do, but we do have control over what we do with Muslims. Be Careful who you Call a Kafir - The fastest way to leave Islam is to wrongly call another person a Kafir. Waste no time debating what a good Muslim should be. Be one! "What Color Was The Dog?" - Why Muslims are in such a dire state today The Pitfalls of Emotion - Leaving the heart as the centre of decision leaves its owner vulnerable to the whispering of Shaytan. His choice of right and wrong, of punishment and mercy, does not waver with his own temper and emotions. Rather, his choice is decisive, based on the Criterion which is pure and just and universal. Had it been any other way, Islam could not have withstood the onslaught from its enemies, just as every other religion was ultimately corrupted according to the whims and desires of its followers. Who is Responsible? - "You have health care and hospitals, but the first health care center was in the home. The first store was in the home. The first government was in the home. The first governmental order was in the home. The first school was in the home. The first bank was in the home. The first transportation was home. If the home is run well, society does not have to worry." Good Deed that will lead to Hell - A hadith which relates how the consequences of committing sin, as opposed to doing good deeds, could lead a person to be successful in the life hereafter. Arrogance against others and mistreatment of animals - List of Hadiths and Quranic verses which severely prohibit mistreatment of other people and of animals Muslims in the Mirror - Prejudice in the Muslim community - Islam is the most anti-racist and anti-prejudicial way of life. Islamic history testifies to the openness Muslims have shown towards people of different cultures and religions. Yet, there is a problem in the Ummah today. Prejudices are not the problems of others. They have become the very sad reality amongst a number of Muslims as well. Frustrations of Converts, Complacency of the Ummah - How sincere is our worship of God if we pray 5 times a day but when a new Muslim turns to us for friendship, we become judgemental and assume they cannot be worth as much as "us born Muslims." They say a man's true nature is revealed when he is confronted with dealing with those who are of no direct importance to him. How do you treat those who are not important to you? Ethnic Culture Versus Islam - Islam is a religion. But, to many, Islam is a culture. It is something they do out of habit rather than out of the education they have received. Sometimes even the culture over-rides religion and they rush out to implement a cultural practice as if it would be unIslamic in not doing so. Difference of Opinion: A Cause of Weakness? - Is it Wrong for Muslims to Differ? In short, No. Evidence for this is an incident in which the Prophet (SAW) witnessed the companions disputing, but did not rebuke them for doing so. The Confusion of the Scholars - Have you ever been confronted with such stupidity that you were speechless? What about Muslims? Are there any incredibly stupid actions which have built up to a dangerous level? Of course! I'm going to point out how some (not all) "scholars" have steered us wrong and taken us away from the path of Islam. It's time to face an uncomfortable truth: Muslims can be racists- When were Muslims like me going to tell the world how badly Muslims treat people of other faiths? Muslims have been far too reluctant to condemn the persecution of people of other religions in some Islamic countries, and it is time we spoke up. Divide and Conquer - Muslims are supposed to be brothers and sisters. We are not supposed to oppress one another by making it impossible to practice our religion. When someone denies an aspect of Islam to the non-believers it gives them a chance to hurt us or oppress us. It gives them a basis for their oppression - a precedent. Muslims Wake up - Too many are trying to "make the deen easier" by watering it down. Necessity in Islam is defined as life and death - and only as much as is necessary to sustain life. Allah Bless America - With Islam - Muslims were like dogs at the feet of their master, waiting for any scrap he might throw from his table. He was singing "God Bless America"!!!!! God Bless America! The Ummah is a stalled car - Sadly, this is our current state. At the most, we are idling on the shoulder of the road, and even that is a generous description. It seems we have forgotten the glorious early days of Islam when the proverbial Muslim engine was running at maximum efficiency. The Meaning of Pride in Poverty - Muslims should not reject economic realities and they should try to earn a living for themselves and their families. Pride in poverty rather means that they should be prepared to become poor in the way of God and truth and if and when they do become poor they should not be ashamed of their poverty but feel proud of it. The Living Character of Islamic Tradition - A great deal of controversy, confusion and disunity among Muslims is caused by a careless use of the argument that such and such a thing did not exist in the days of the Prophet and the rightly guided caliphs or was not allowed by them and therefore it is un-Islamic. Often this argument is used with a measure of hypocrisy and intellectual dishonesty.... How Charitable are Muslims? A big hint ... NOT VERY. We do very poorly compared to the Americans whom many Muslims do nothing but backbite and slander Zakat and Charity should be Instruments for Developing the Poor But affluence has made Muslims arrogant and negligent Muslims Earn A Distorted Image How blind we are to the extent to which we have deviated from the example of the Holy Prophet The Women of Afghanistan: Whose Concern Is It, Anyway?This is a crisis that both our Muslim brothers & the media of the west is to blame for. This article gives a balanced opinion showing the drawbacks of both sides. Muslims on the Internet: The Good, the Bad...the Ugly This article shows how Muslims are misbehaving and acting irresponsibly on the Internet. This is a shame since the Internet is a fantastic tool for Dawah. Women are Falling Behind In Pakistan! This article sheds light on the crisis that Pakistani women are facing - the situation is terrible and again, this is a great paradox since Pakistan pays lip-service to being an "Islamic" country. A Quranic society does not treat its women this way. Obligation of a Muslim Towards a Disbeliever This article gives details on how we should treat Non-Muslims. Many Muslims are rude and unfair toward Non-Muslims and this is WRONG. Don't forget that when our Prophet received his first revelation, almost EVERYONE was a disbeliever. Do you think he could have converted so many people if treated them the way some Muslims today treat Non-Muslims? Women are ABUSED in the name of Islam This is a article that briefly describes how women are mistreated in the name of religion i.e. Muslim men - fathers, brothers, husbands, etc. are using religion as an excuse to abuse women. This article is good because the Non-Muslim writer points out the various examples of abuse but concludes firmly, that what these Muslim men are doing is against Islam. The Unholy war between Iraq and Iran This article shows how irresponsibly leaders such as Khomeini and Saddam Hussein act, in the expense of ruining the reputation of Islam - a religion they claim to represent. Disunity over Eid Date Reflects More Muslims remain divided even on this special occasion. An Islamic Perspective on the Ego The Qur'an and Sunnah attack the root of the problem by reminding the human being, in many places, of his origin (mire, clay, a worthless drop of fluid, etc.) so that he would have no reason to become arrogant WE AS MUSLIMS ARE TO BLAME NOT ISLAM.

1 Wretchard has an interesting post about making decisions under conditions of uncertainty that applies to this error, as well as the general problem of accurate reporting and intelligence. The defense is unlikely to occur to MSM, however, because they need to ignore it in order to crucify the Bush Administration for "lying about Iraq's WMD." Well, at least not bothering to keep the database clean and up to date.

2 Rescue OPS are professionals. I personally doubt there would be a "mis-communication" between them - more like a cautious and reserved analysis constantly evolving during find/recovery stage which would take possibly several hours. Scratch this story deep enough, and I bet your gonna find an over-eager media in a rush to file a story - and the media sources being essentially each other. Read the media "stories" and the filler detail. Since the initial point of the story is wrong - the filler information is clearly manufactured - with the media sourcing each other. We have a lot of complaints about the media, but seldom do we acknowledge their incompetence and laziness. This is a classic.

3 This morning on CNN some of the relatives of the victims said the CEO of the mining corporation relayed the message that the twelve men were alive, personally.

4 The search is on for a scapegoat for MSM CYA. Note - Command CTR - presspool - live cameras - SAT links - no record - it didn't come from there - so where? A rumor was all they needed - then they quote/source each other - once on the air local people believe it - MSM mentality - if people believe it - it must be true - a circle by another name. Back to the story - since it wasn't true - all the after filler 'bout hospitals, conditions, technical reports were - all MSM manufactured.

5 So how can we blame this one on the europeans and socialism in general ?

6 ????

7 One of our customers here and I can't say sorry has four employees that were married to miners who died.

8 The MSM demonstrate their "vetting" abilities and rigorous checking of sources.

1 Let me just remind you guys. That Saddam was bad, he had WMD. He could nuke the UK in 45 mins, just like that was a load of bollocks, so is this whole Iran and N. Korea rubbish. Finally lets remember Iran. The FIRST DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED PRIME MINISTER OF THE COUNTRY WAS OVERTHROWN BY THE USA BECAUSE OF NATNIOLIZING THE OIL and replaced by the very western Shah of Iran, WHO WAS OBERTHROWN AND REPLACED BY THE WESTERN BACKED AYATOLLAH KHOMENEI.

2 Jaaaaaaack Abramoff is squealing, Republicans get pwned, coooooorrupted government, gets blown up on the walls. I bet he won't live till Friday, surely he'll be dead, shot down like John Kennedy, or slave-freeing poor Abe. Soon available on über-copyrighted, spywared CDs and DVDs from Sony BMG. Also tune in for "Abramoff is going to die"-music video, 10 pm every day on NBC.

3 In other news, 99%-certainly-Christian Greek anarchists blow up car of Finlands ambassador. Greek authorities try to assure that the Finnish embassy was not especially targeted. A Finn still feeling hung over after holidays... 90% alcohol drinks are not meant to be drunk in mug sizes.

4 Yes Amaad, the whole thing with Iran is a "load of bollocks" as you eloquently put it. As Europe will be one of the first areas that Iran's nuclear warheads will be capable of reaching, you had best hope that indeed that is the case. Iran is preparing to be a Nuclear armed nation, not only are they purchasing weapon systems capable of missile defense, they're also shopping for missiles capable of carrying nuclear warheads to greater increasing distances. Nth. Korea is an example why Iran should not be allowed to possess nuclear weapons, "you cannot put the genie back in the bottle" and once they have them, they'll use them as a bargaining chip in round after round of negotiations, they will of course never give them up. Then you have to look at Iran's promise to prolificate nuclear technologies to all Islamic nations, not an idea anyone should relish.

5 The article is way to obscure on details. What "western European nations"? What "leading industrialists"? They're saying, "We have a leaked, sensitive document 55 pages long, but we're not telling you any of the 'detailed assessments' we have in the document. We'll just stick with generalities to freak you out." All it tells me is that if Iran is still "seeking" parts and knowledge, they don't have anything concrete yet.

6 Hey amaad, tell your mother that her last goat-blowing video sold well, but she needs to take a bath, as the goats are complaining about the smell. Finn, you're just a fucking moron and not worth the effort of a good, biting comment. I hope being a dhimmi works out for you, which it should, as you seem to like fellating muslims.

7 Amaad, The Brits wanted Mossadegh out, not the U.S. Their money was at stake, not ours. We helped them get rid of him because that was the price of their continued help in the Korean War. That doesn't make it right, but the people who own the blame for the abuse Iran took up to 1953 are the Brits, not the Americans. Where do you get this idea that the "West" backed Khomeini? Khomeini's only tie to the West prior the revolution was his short stay in France after the Shah forced him out of Iraq. France never "supported" him. They just gave him asylum.

8 Nice writng Shannon. improbulus go f**** yourself. The Ayatollah was given the support of the USA after his touching speech on 'Islamic democracy'. This suprised the Shah because he thought the USA would respect a man in a suit more. 'taken from 'the days that shook the world' BBC3

9 As for terrorism: you fail to remember its global, not islamic. There are Christian, Jewish, Black, White, Nationalistic, Communist etc terrorist groups. S0 THINK BEFORE YOU ARE PREJUDICED AGAINST MUSLIMS. IF YOU ARE DRIVEN TO HATE BY THE ACTIONS OF A FEW SO CALLED 'MUSLIMS' THEN YOU HAVE FELL INTO THE TERORISTS T

10 Afgahanistan is now a pothole in the ground beacuse of the USA not the Soviets. Soviets invaded, mujahideen rebelled, USA gave financial and political backing, soviets left, USA left, Afghanistan turns into a pothole. i think I know why the Afghani's would be pissed with America.

11 Muslims going to America and Europe are faced with a flood of questions about Islam. People have many ways of asking these question and different motivations for doing so, but their questions are essentially as follows: Why does Islam permit polygamy? Why is a woman counted as half a man in matters of inheritance and when she gives testimony? Why does Islam “belittle” women? Is Islam a religion of terror since it prescribes jihad? Who should we believe: Sunnis or Shiites? Questions like these are what occupy their minds when they think about Islam, since the Western media has actively maligned Islam as a religion of lust and blood and nothing else. When our Muslim youth go to their countries, they often find such questions awkward and try to evade them. They might say things like: Permission for polygamy is conditional upon justice between wives and justice between wives is impossible to achieve. Allah says: “You will not be able to be just between women even if you strive to do so.” [Sûrah al-Nisâ’: 129] Whatever is conditional upon something impossible is impossible itself. Therefore, polygamy is forbidden in Islam. In many cases, Muslims will come across a strange opinion on a matter and promote it simply because it is more conciliatory. When I visited America, I found that many Muslims who did not have correct or sufficient Islamic knowledge suffered from such difficulties. They really did not know what to do. I used to tell them the following: Why should we be on the defensive? Why don’t we adopt a more assertive attitude? If they confront us one question, we should respond with ten of our own. If they ask us about jihad, we should ask them about America’s openly aggressive policies in many parts of the world, not to mention all of their covert operations. If they ask you about polygamy, ask them about the sexual promiscuity that is rife in their societies that has brought humiliation to so many women and allowed men to absolve themselves of their responsibilities towards them and towards their children? If they ask you about inequalities in inheritance, ask them about the reality in their own country where a woman earns only 60% of what a man earns for doing the exact same job. I do not mean that we should be evasive. However, it is not good for you to respond when you are in a state of weakness and difficulty where there is a danger that you might answer falsely and misrepresent Allah’s religion in order to appease someone else. You can move on to a more advanced level of discourse and demonstrate that Islamic teachings are the solution to the problems that they are suffering from. For instance, according to some assessments, there are 119 women to every 100 men in the United States. In some states, the number is more like 160 women to every 100 men. Polygamy is the solution to the problems that ensue under such circumstances, since it requires some men to assume responsibility for more than one woman and to be as just as humanly possible in doing so. We can stress how Islam teaches equality between all people. There is no preference for anyone over anyone else except by a person’s piety and virtue. This is the way to do away with the problem of racism that people in the West suffer from. The Islamic teachings about jihad are what uproots oppression and guarantees people the freedom to think and to choose their religion for themselves without being under any compulsion. Islam seeks to have people freely submit themselves to their Creator and not be placed under the subjugation of any worldly dictator, race, tribe, or nationality. There are a few points that I would like to emphasize: 1. Matters of Islamic law are established by the unambiguous texts of the Qur’ân and Sunnah. No one, regardless of who he is, has the right to change, add, or subtract anything to placate anyone’s desires or fears. When someone who calls others to Islam opts to misinform people about Allah’s rulings, he is doing a disservice to Islam. He is also deceiving people. He has no right to meddle in matters of Islamic Law that are the jurisdiction of Allah alone. 2. Matters that fall within the scope of juristic discretion and allow for differences of opinion should be presented in a balanced and objective manner by the person who is calling others to Islam. He should take circumstances into consideration when doing so. He should not select the most severe and restrictive opinion on a matter and present it to the people as if it is Islam itself, especially when he is trying to endear Islam to the people’s hearts. 3. Our objective should be to convince others of the correctness of the Islamic ruling so that they will accept it. We must employ all of our knowledge and reasoning abilities in achieving this objective. We must provide all the relevant facts. We can employ to our advantage other areas of knowledge that we find to be of benefit in convincing people of Islam. This may inlude discussions of the Qur’ân's scientific miracles, statistical information, circumstances and experiences, and rational arguments. There is nothing wrong with this. In fact, this is an integral part of conveying the truth to the people. 4. We must instill in the hearts of our young people complete and total confidence in every aspect of Islam, from the most general teachings of their faith to the most specific. We must dispel any sense of weakness or deficiency that they might possibly feel at the hands of some of those who dispute with them. We do a disservice to Islam if we lead the people to believe that Islam is close to the life that they already living and that the Islamic approach to life is not much different than their own. This only makes the people feel that Islam is unnecessary for them and encourages them to turn away from it. They are, in fact, trying to escape from the hellish aspects of the lives that they are already leading. They need to be presented with an alternative. When they ask about Islam or even about something else, they are looking for a way out. They are looking for something to rescue them. Therefore, we must present Islam to them with all of its uniqueness and show them clearly how it differs from their own life experiences. In this way, we encourage them to think about Islam. We must present Islam to them in a logical manner with clear and insightful arguments. Our responsibility ends here. Indeed, this was the extent of the responsibility of Allah’s Messengers (peace be upon them). Allah says to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him): “It is naught your duty but to convey the message.” [Sûrah al-Shûrâ: 48] “It is your duty only to convey the message. It is upon Us to take account.” [Sûrah al-Ra`d: 40] “So admonish them. You are but one who admonishes. You do not control their affairs.” [Sûrah al-Ghâshiyah: 21-22] It is not necessary for us to fancy that the whole world will convert to Islam at our hands. However, we must be eager to guide them and we must seek to do so in every possible and permissible way. We should perfect our way of presenting Islam to them, taking into account the age, circumstances, and level of knowledge of those whom we are addressing. We must present to them the noble Islamic values of freedom, justice, and human dignity and prove to them that Islam is superior to everything that they already know. Above and beyond all of this, we must conduct ourselves in the best, most ethical manner and present our own lives as a practical example of moral virtue. Unfortunately, many Muslims call people to Islam with their tongues while pushing them away from it with their ignoble, contradictory conduct and with their narrow-mindedness.

12 First of all don't talk crap up about Islam. Read between the lines of the quraan. Don't make up phony hadith. ISlam isn't bad.

13 Back to the topic point - I have serious problems with a report in the Guardian - long on claims and totally absent on details. The Guardian will eagerly play both sides of the street to stir the pot.

14 WHY SHOULD I BELIVE BUSH THIS TIME. HE HAD 'CLEAR' and 'CONCSIVE' PROOF THAT SADDAM HAD NUKES, WHERE THE F*** ARE THEY?

15 Stay on topic - don't let Amaad divert you into an idiotic argument about caparative islam.

16 Yes, the lack of specifics in the Guardian report is curious. Perhaps they're planning a series. Amaad: the source of Islam's bad press is 9/11 and 7/7, not the western media. The American MSM have bent over backwards to accommodate Islam. That's why there's a media embargo on 9/11 images. I have tried to find something redeeming in Islam, but failed. It appears to be a corrosive, third-world cult that thrives on ignorance.

17 There are good people that are Muslims, nonetheless Islam is not peaceful. Eventhough Islamofascists are a minority of Muslim they still represent Muslims in the millions. Unlike communist, neo-nazi, white supremacist etc, etc groups; Islamofascists are extremely well financed by millionaire and billionaire fellow cadres. As for the religion of peace claim by Muslims go to this website - http://www.thereligionofpeace.org - to see the true ethics of Islam. Islamofascist are not nice people and their intent is world domination with an overseeing Caliphate. Not good for unbelieving Muslims who will to choose between conversion or death or dhimmitude.

18 Oops that website is http://www.thereligionofpeace.com, not dot org.

19 Afgahanistan is now a pothole in the ground beacuse of the USA not the Soviets. How is that again? The Arabs flocked to Afghanistan like it was some third-world, donkey meat, kebab cart and hung around like a bad cumin smell. You can also look at their neighboring country Pakistan for pretty much all of Afghanistan problems, seeing as they occupied, and created their own Government in Afghanistan, and created a third-world, medieval, knuckle-dragging society where women were treated worse than goats, and "evils" such as music and art were banned. You have some huge nuts, sunshine.

20 Amaad, It seems unlikely that the U.S. supported Khomeini prior to the revolution for several reasons: We were already invested in the Shah, and Khomeini started denouncing the U.S. shortly after he started denouncing the Shah (about 1963). Khomeini kept claiming the shah was our puppet. He was wrong, but he had no way of knowing that. The U.S. historically *hates* the notion of political disruption in the Gulf to the extent of propping up some pretty oppressive monarchies. We weren't willing to topple the shah for democracy any more than we are willing to support democracy in Saudi or Bahrain. Serious questions of revolution in Iran didn't rise in the U.S. until the latter half of 1979, and our state department was encouraging the shah to put down the massive autumn protests right up until his army fell apart and he fled the county weeks later. What you are interpreting as support for Khomeini is really just State Department double-talk. Khomeini was talking democracy, and the U.S. has to approve of democracy, even when we are working with a dictator. Compare the situation with that of Ferdinand Marcos (though the shah was a good deal more benign than Marcos.)

21 So Amaad Since the topic story (AS PER THE GUARDIAN) is about Iran aquiring missile and nuclear weapons technology from Europe and other sources - what is your opinion? Or is that too fuckin' much to ask? Thank God muslims don't play baseball - otherwise you would be giving use box scores too.

22 Hey amaad, I heard the reason that so many muslim guys are such psychopathic retards is because you all get used like girls when you're young, like your pedophile prophet mohammed (bacon grease upon him) did to poor little Aisha. I guess being used like a girl would mess a guy up, so it figures that you're all such pathetic losers who abuse women and pretty much hate everyone. Maybe you should just kill yourself to end the pain?

23 Amaad: Don't forget to give some credit to the Afghans themselves. We stay we are asked to leave. We leave it's our fault for leaving them hanging. Blaming the US for everything is counter productive. Is it not reasonable to suggest that these countries are due some blame as well.

24 Oh, poor 'as unlikely as possible', disappointment, terrible disappointment. Crummy insults, since it's always that same stuff when you people get stumped and angry. Dhimmi dhimmi dhimmi and some sex stuff, possibly because it's extremely taboo for certain fanatics and those who desperately want more of it. Me? Nah, enough nudity on various screens to not value sex stuff too much, despite lack of manual labour related to the subject.

25 You all hear amaad guys, islam isn't bad, so it must be Mennonites cutting peoples' heads off and blowing up kids and stuff. Hey amaad, is your sister still prostituting in Africa?

26 I also wanted to address the "man assumes responsibility for more then one woman" stuff. Ok men should be responsible and that's all honorable and good. However the attitude that women are helpless without men or a burden is the core problem. If your mindset is that women are incapable and a burden what do you expect? that they will be treated well. Women can and do just about anything and surely in some families the man could be called the "burden".

27 Howie nice seeing you. talk t a later time, busy. Hondo wtf. I do play baseball and soocer.

28 dave your comments are absurd. Pakistan have caught many more Al-qaeda leaders than the USA. Pakistan accept Afghani refugees. Oh and by the way most of the natural gas going to America goes through Afghanistan, turkeminestan and PAKISTAN. Finally Pakistan did not make the government. “A senior delegation from the Taleban movement in Afghanistan is in the United States for talks with an international energy company that wants to construct a gas pipeline from Turkmenistan across Afghanistan to Pakistan. A spokesman for the company, Unocal, said the Taleban were expected to spend several days at the company's headquarters in Sugarland, Texas.” “Taleban in Texas for talks on Gas Pipeline,” BBC News, December 4, 1997 (Sugarland is 22 miles outside Houston.) THE PRESIDENT OF AFGHANISTAN IS A SHARE HOLDER IN THE CARLYLE GROUP. A SHARE HOLDER IN THE MANY OF BUSH'S GROUPS AND FORMER GROUPS. YOU GUYS SHOULD SERIOUSLY WATCH FARENHEIT 9/11. IT'LL GET RID OF THE CRAP IN YOUR BRAIN.

1 When it comes to moral outrage, 3 kinds of victim dominate British journalism: Women, children, and animals. Or, in other words, every living thing on Earth except men.

2 it all sounds like a perfect scenario for a porno movie.

3 "It will be interesting to see how the British public reacts if it's found that people are discriminated against because they're ugly." If that were the case, how did Camilla not get thrown out?

4 Hot broads don't blowthemselves up.

5 Considering that most British girls are about dog ugly, and that the good looking ones usually immigrate to America, it's probably just a measure to breed some good looks back into the Brits.

6 Who would stoop low enough to have sex with a muslim. YuK!~!

7 I can't believe I never thought of that idea.

8 british girls are lovely.....your sounding like a batty boy, maximus.

9 .....and judging by this site im just glad british women are not a bunch of child molesters, unlike some.......

10 that "cool mom" is a bit of a hound isnt she.....not exactly an oil painting. i wouldnt touch her with yours....

1 I was just reviewing a colleague's syllabus for a course I begin teaching in two weeks on Oral and Interpersonal skills, and I laughed at the page at the end that had a twenty-question quiz about his basic personal statistics, the kind many instructors give in a short speech at the beginning of the course. I laughed because I knew he was giving his speech to students, many of whom mentally bugged out while waiting to hear what was directly required of them, only to find out that they had missed a wealth of points in what they thought to be insignificant minutiae. I'm not sure I'd say I've felt buried alive, but I've surely felt the barrier of zoning out people tend to do that I associate with media overload - I think of it as a muffler.

1 January 3rd, 2006 1:53 pm U.S. Air Strike Kills Iraqi Family of 12 Attack Was Directed at Suspected Bombers, U.S. Military Says By A Washington Post Special Correspondent TIKRIT, Iraq, Jan. 3 -- A U.S. air strike that Americans said was directed at suspected bombers killed a family of 12 in their home north of Baghdad Monday night, Iraqi officials said Tuesday. A Washington Post special correspondent watched as rescuers removed the bodies of women and children still in their nightclothes. Lt. Col. Barry Johnson, a U.S. military spokesman in Baghdad, confirmed the air strike in the Baiji area, about 155 miles north of the capital, but said he had no immediate information on casualties. In a statement, the U.S. military said an unmanned drone in the area had tracked three men digging in a road about 9 p.m. Monday. Insurgents commonly plant bombs in such craters to catch passing convoys of U.S. and Iraqi officials. The military called in air support, tracked the three men as they entered a building nearby and attacked the building with precision-guided munitions, the military said. Maj. Abdul Jabbar Kaissi, a security officer with Salahuddin governorate, said the air strike killed the 12-member family of Ghadban Nahi Kaissi, a farmer and relative of the governor of Salahuddin province, Ahmad Mahmud Kaissi. U.S. forces surrounded the area Tuesday morning as bulldozers removed rubble and emergency crews pulled out bodies. The Post special correspondent watched as crews removed the bloody body of an older woman, her head covered in a black scarf, and two younger women in nightclothes with their heads uncovered for sleep. Rescuers brought out the bodies of three boys on their thin mattresses. They were wrapped in the blankets in which search teams said the boys had been sleeping when the explosives hit. The boys appeared younger than 10. Residents and Iraqi officials said there were no insurgents in the home. The area is one where insurgents are present and stage frequent attacks. Six other houses in the area were damaged, and two residents wounded, authorities said. U.S. air strikes in Iraq increased almost five-fold over the course of 2005, going from 25 last January to 120 in November. The U.S. military says it uses only precision-guided munitions and makes every effort to minimize civilian casualties. Critics say civilian casualties are almost inevitable in air strikes in cities and towns, and they fault the military for not tracking civilian deaths from those strikes to better learn how to reduce them.

2 You left out he part where we found an IED in the area where these men were digging Mr. Sucks. So rather than blame us maybe the men who planted the bomb put these people in danger. So there were no "men" in the house just women and Children. Likely story.

3 Get me the ISP of this idiot.

4 Collateral damage - unfortunate - but I can live with it. I would like to know if we "wacked" the two targets - I'd be a little pissed if we "missed". Those missiles cost good money.

5 Oh forgot - thats a lot of damage for one precision missile (possibly a Hellfire) - any "secondary" explosions - or is that too fuckin' much info to ask for?

6 Fortunately reverting to said type of action is relatively rare (always collateral risks - try to avoid). Fortunately HK Nightcrawler activities has become "extremely" successful.

7 Heh. NO JIHAD FOR JOO!!!

8 ... and there is no MSM out on the road at 3 in the morning all by their lonesome in the middle of nowhere.

9 9/11 was collateral damage hondo. msm won't leave the green zone.

10 Gee Whiz! Sooooo brilliant! I have absolutely no problem with you, libs, & leftists proclaiming that loudly and proudly throughout America from sea to shining sea. I'll even buy you a bullhorn for that brilliance. Please do with my blessing.

1 It's looking likely that Iran is going to get rocked, and instead of shutting his mouth, and doing the clandestine program, their leader is almost begging for a Tomahawk to hit his house.

2 Looks like it's just about time for a good spread of tactical nukes.

1 Since when did truth and reason work with Democrats -- or the Old Media?

2 Timeline is important - CIA did have "problems" coming out of '90s and it takes a bit to straighten out. But key is ALL after 9/11 immediately - ALL targeting AQ and islamic friends and associates (and not deviating! - this is important!) ... BULK of OPS up front (9/12 -'04) - current OPS clearly implied by all as scaled back ... AND ONGOING! (DON'T BACK DOWN BUSH! LET THEM CALL YOUR HAND (IN PUBLIC!) If all that holds - lib/left goes BDS - EVERYBODY else goes "Yeah! So what!" Terror free at home is NOT by luck - and everyone KNOWS that (though some attempt (poorly) to imply otherwise ... "devil's in the details" and the "details (successes) are currently classified ... ... unless "forced" out (in '06)? I still believe there is an element of "planting" involved here ... hondo would do it - but I'm a devious smart MoFu - and and libs all know Bush/Cheney/Rove & Co. are morons - right? Big problems for DEM/lib/left - tie-in with Iraq minimal to non-existant ... program totally AQ, 9/11 aftermath & WOT! Predominate words put out by opposition - SPYING ON US RESIDENTS! CITIZENS used sparingly and generic .. this is No accident! Does our resident Dem/libs think non-conservative middle Americans are "going to give a flying fuck" the NSA is checking on "Momar & his brother Salad running that laundromat in Cleveland" in the aftermath of 9/11? I don't think so!

3 The book claims that the CIA knew that there were no WMDS but decided to ignore the fact and allow the administration to continue a logic that had no validity in reality. Too mnay facts are coming out about republican criminality...Abramoff is about to destroy the "republican revolution" to save his ass from years behind bars. Americans are waking up real fast to the corruption of the current administration and congress. Bush support from military drops to 54%, Murtha says he wouldnt join the army today, BUsh found to be illegally spying on US citizens, Delay and Frsit in legal troubles....man you guys are bumming come 06...do you smell impeachment too? ernie

4 No ice cream for you ernie!

5 And hondo, your racism blinds you, as Constitution supporting American citizens we deny the US executive the right to arbitrarily and illegally spy on ALL US citizens, including Muslims and folks of Abrab descent. The Constitution does not just guarantee rights for WASPY good toby keith listening republican texans. freedom and liberty, courage...over fearful needs for safety from a despot...ALWAYS! ernie

6 HA! NO SOUP FOR YOU TOO!

7 BUT A SONG ... Who's your daddy, who's your baby? Who's your buddy, who's your friend? And who's the one guy that you come runnin' to When your lovelife starts tumblin? I got the money if you got the honey Lets cut a deal lets make a plan Who's your daddy, who's your baby? Who's your buddy, who's your man?

8 "freedom, liberty and courage...." ernie talking about courage? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Oh that's rich.

9 good responses, i take it you agree with my points. this abramoff squealing thing should get real interesting. ANyone wanna take any guesses how many republican/democrat politicans go down in this? ernie

10 Wanna put your money where your big mouth is, ernie boy? Boy, where's your money?

11 Ha ha ha ha!

12 Please don't give him ice cream!

13 What are the chances that Risen will be jailed in an attempt to find out his sources? Probably wouldn't work as well with Risen because he will be receiving more money the more publicity he can get. As he sits in jail, he would be counting his money. How long could he be kept in jail for refusing to testify before a grand jury? Just for the life of the grand jury?

14 BUsh found to be illegally spying on US citizens, As usual Ernie misses the mark by about a hundred miles, as the targets have not been identified, only that the recipients were inside the United States, which obviously could encompass people inside the U.S on Work/University visa, tourist visas or even people here illegally, not to worry Ernie wants to give them all the rights of citizenship so he can stick it to Bush! (BDS) Did your mom feed you paint chip sandwiches for lunch Ernie?

15 "Abramoff" lil ernie, I bet you think they're still going to indict "Rove" too. bwahaha! keep dreaming. Abramoff will turn out to be just another one of many non-scandals you Libs keep working yourself up for. You're a pathetic sight.

16 Risen sounds like he might be a war profiteer in the mode of Richard Clarke. Oh, well. At least we know what the news peg is going to be for the next couple weeks.

17 "Richard Clarke" yup. The timing of all these leaks is always so conducive to their book sales. Disgusting. War profiteers sums it up well.

18 Hypothetically, would it be considered inciting to violence to state that anyone who knowingly and willfully damages the war effort and national security is a traitor and should be murdered in the street by a couple of guys in ski masks with ball bats? Hypothetically, of course...

19 The book claims that the CIA knew that there were no WMDS but decided to ignore the fact and allow the administration to continue a logic that had no validity in reality. OK, let's take that step by step. "The book claims" and so you're going to automatically believe it? Without a little more evidence to support it, I'll have to assume you accept that claim simply because it reinforces your own, already established view of things. I'm not even going to address the "No WMD'S" blather, it's rather tired by this point, and has been so well answered by so many others. But let's, for the sake of argument, pretend that the claim has even a sliver of validity. If the CIA failed to correct an assumption made by the administration, how does that translate to a fault on the part of the administration? Rather, it would be a stinging indictment of the CIA, and would raise serious questions (ones that are already being asked) as to why the CIA would intentionally sabotage the presidency. Too mnay facts are coming out about republican criminality...Abramoff is about to destroy the "republican revolution" to save his ass from years behind bars. I didn't know Harry Reid had changed parties. The fact is, there are dirty politicians on both sides of the political divide. So why did you bring it up? It has nothing to do with the Risen Book (making it a non sequitur), and it has nothing to do with the validity of any belief held by conservatives (making it an ad hominem). Two fallacies for the price of one! do you smell impeachment too? No, I just smell the same tired bullshit being spewed by your side that has been around since 2000.

20 From CNN [can't paste link] "CIA Director of Public Affairs Jennifer Millerwise Dyke issued this statement Tuesday about Risen's book: "Readers deserve to know that every chapter of 'State of War' contains serious inaccuracies. The author's reliance on anonymous sources begs the reader to trust that these are knowledgeable people. As this book demonstrates, anonymous sources are often unreliable. "It is most alarming that the author discloses information that he believes to be ongoing intelligence operations, including actions as critical as stopping dangerous nations from acquiring nuclear weapons. Setting aside whether what he wrote is accurate or inaccurate, it demonstrates an unfathomable and sad disregard for U.S. national security and those who take life-threatening risks to ensure it.""

1 Hillary Clinton - I resolve that I will pretend to be conservative no more that 50% of the time.

2 Noooo! I hope Pelosi gets so many-many more Botox treatments that her forehead splits open to reveal the alien space-bug inside.

3 I'm home sick and there was a special on the History Channel about the Gulag. What an idiot Durban is.

4 Howard Dean: I resolve not to call Republicans any more names. Okay so maybe just those that start with "Z". Yeah, that's it. I won't call them zebras .... or zulus.

5 Ted Kennedy- I will remember not to miss my swimming lessons, they were a real lifesaver before.

1 Agent Smith says "The virus is ME".

2 You've certainly behaved virus-like here.

3 Whoah baby look at that there virus threat. Why, that sucker's huge.

4 We need a patch against the Liberal virus.

5 Hmmmmm! Have "Me" finally transititioned to M2 - the Architect will be displeased.

6 Bluto's post Bluto's rules. I would imagine he has left 98% of your blabber. So you did not get your way one time and are whining? Now who is acting age two here?

7 Howie: I had left 99.9% of his blather. Now I've flushed all of his comments from my posts.

8 I take it your referring to artie - OK & not Smith - Smith I can deal with, and appreciate.

9 Yes, apparently artie has gone off his meds and is experiencing a major psychotic break. Of course, I always find it flattering when lib stalker fixates on me.

10 Show him your photo - that will spook him - nice shirt - is that the Hudson or Mohawk Valley.

11 Neither, it's the Hollywood Hills. We took a vacation to the left coast last year. I don't want to scare him off. I'm hoping he'll start a "Bluto Sucks" or "Dreadwatch" blog. Then I'll know that I've arrived.

1 The scary thing to me is that it doesn't look like they've got a plan; or if they do, everyone clearly isn't on board. Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy!" while you reach for your stick. Calling for all dogs to be wiped from the face of the Earth is unwise until you have that stick firmly in hand.

2 I think the best way to win this nuclear war for the United States and the world is not to send one of the US allies such as Turkey or Saudi Arabia to knock Iran's nuclear facility, but to topple the regime from within. If the Allies strike, then Iran will respond with a "smashing" blow to Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and Israel. And they would strike back, and then Iran's allies would step in to secure their interest : Russia and China. This is surely the predicted scene of WW3. Now the solution is to support the people of Iran to elect a more educated and democratic regime that would responsibly halt its nuclear process with economic rewards from the US. The majority of the Iranian people are sick of this government and are ready for the long awaited democracy. The current fundamental regime is not up for any reasonable talks and they will hug their bombs with all their life. The answer only lies from within, but they need our support.

3 The problem with your scenario Jimi, is that toppling the regime from within takes time - and time is rapidly running out. The two arms which give Iran its foreign reach are its proxy armies and soon, it's nuclear strike capability. The latter is the far bigger threat and thus it's essential that an end be put to it. Diplomacy has been tried repeatedly and failed miserably. Almost all of the blame for that can be placed on the US - EU3 group. If their facilities get attacked, Iran will lash out first and foremost at Israel, but it will be a conventional or bio-chem strike, something the Israelis can handle. I don't foresee Russia and China risking a nuclear confrontation over Iran, since the only links are economic and not ideologic. The Iranian people are tired of the oppression and deserve the chance at freedom. Asssistance can be given there, but right now the priority must be given to taking out those nuclear facilities. If another nuclear power were to get word that Iranian missiles or terrorists armed with nukes were on their way to the capital, the same disgruntled Iranaians who want change will not find themselves receiving help to topple their government, but rather a nuclear counterstrike.

4 Agent Smith says Jihadidad is trying to secure his grip within Iran by saying such stupid stuff and that his whole nuclear game is a bluff.

5 And when we lend support and aid to those within and it doesn't turn out right? We will be further maligned and hated as we are now for trying to help others. Or as in the past when things turned out badly. It's been a monumental task in Iraq even with our massive presence there. The Iranians looking for democracy need a lot more than clandestine aid and support. These people have been oppressed so badly for so long, and the ruling party has such tight reigns on them, they won't be able to overturn the Mullahs anymore than the Iraqis were able to get rid of Saddam on their own. Jimi Olhardy's scenario of toppling them from within is ideal but not even remotely likely. Personally, I think the ONLY chance is for someone to take out their nuclear facilities. And soon.

6 Weird huh - I agree - with - Smith - but - we could be wrong - shit happens.

7 I hate to say this, but the Agent may be right in this case. I think Iran is posturing, and does not have the bomb. Bombing their nuclear facilities should be ruled out for the moment. I say wait for a little while longer.

8 Okay - maybe I'm being rash. They're not exactly known for being truthful, are they?

9 I don't agree with the argument that it may all be a bluff, but anything's possible. A good indicator of whether they do plan to aquire nuclear weapons would be simultaneous development of delivery systems. The Shahab missile series is now at Shahab 5 and 6 which may have a range of as much as 6000 km. No one spends all that money to then slap a conventional HE warhead on a long range missile.

10 Graeme: Also they resist all attempts to replace weapon grade enrichment facilities with ones that are more suited to civilian Nuclear power generation (like the offer to swap their hard water facility, for light.) This coupled with the fact they put their civilian program under control of the military (Revolutionary Guard) and are attempting to make purchases from North Korea of missile technology (Rodong missile) and they're seeking high-tech air defense systems. I don't believe Iran is playing p-oker, and I believe they might be even further a long that we expect, I heard the CIA said in the late 90's there was high probability that Iran purchased a bomb from one of the Balkan break away states (maybe for reverse-engineering.) The world cannot let Iran get Nuclear weapons, not only because of their radical leaders, but because of the high probability of Iran prolificating weapons through the Islamic world.

11 Additionally Dave, is the massive expense of concealling the facilities. In other countries with civilian programs, the research and generation structures are on or near the surface. The Iranians have buried their systems as deep as they can and that doesn't come cheap, nor does it lend itself to easily establishing a nationwide generation system. In 2004 there was an article that mentioned a building that the IAEA had targeted for inspection. Before they could do so, the building was torn down and all the debris removed - even the first few inches of top soil. Something important and not above board had to have been going on there.

12 Besides the nuke & Israel issues - Iran's president & mullahs have been giving tons of speeches of late internal to Iran reference "cultural problems and failings" and "addressing" them. This is what I'm concerned about - and I believe this is what outside intel is watching. Everything else may well be directly related to this "internal game". Iran's Islamic revolution is failing badly where it counts - the only things that have been propping it up has been oil revenues (increased prices and production) and controlled elections.

13 Time for an invasion, or a spread of tactical nukes. I'm good with either.

14 I'm in favor of the latter rather than the former, Improb. Dead mullahs fling no bombs.

1 it was reported in boston herald on 12/29/05 how a father (in name only) slit the throat of his daughters for "honor" i remember how when Israel sent military units into southern Lebanon when Pres. Reagan was our leader, that Israeli forces found soviet made missles hidden in the bedroom of the children of Lebanon. in addition i also remember how during the 8 year war between saddam hussein and khomeni the children of these nations were forced to walk thru fields that were suspected to have landmines in order to clear the fields of the landmines. methinks that with the exception of Judaism and Christianity the religions that arouse out of the middle east is the common denominator that makes parents forget the natural feelings parents have for their children. and being new to this website and looking around the comment i saw where some one said without Israel there would be no problem. i think the readers of this website would be interested in a book i bought named jihad, history from the 7th century to the 21st century, and the author of this book is Paul Fregosi. the publisher for this book is Prometheus Books. isbn is 1-57392-247-1 (my copy is hardcover) and it was published in 1998(my copy) i think the readers would be interested to know that Fregosi's book describes in the Armenian massacre by the ottomans, the jihadist even opened the graves of the dead because of the vicious nature of jihad. and in massachusetts court system, the turkish government has filed a lawsuit to prevent the teaching of the Armenian massacre. so is it true the claim jihad would not be a problem if there was no Israel? the Armenians suffering mentioned above was in 1915 and Israel became a reality in 1948.

2 Red state voter, Most people on this website are very familiar with the genocide of the Armenians by the Ottoman Turks. But that was only one of many slaughters of innocent people perpetuated by the Turks during the 600 year reign of the jihad, or gaza as they sometimes called it. I am also familiar with Paul Fregosi's work, Jihad in the West, and I would also refer you to Robert Spencer's new book, The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam and the Crusades. You may also be interested in an earliar massacre of the Christian peoples of Anatolia during the initial invasion of the Seljuk Turks. There are graphic examples of that slaughter if you care to read them. They are horrible, and I do not recommend them unless you have a strong stomach.

3 A great heartwarming story - a lousy topic title - and two unrelated and bizzare (given the story) comments. Am I the only one finding this weird?

4 Whachoo talking about Willis? That's a great title. Demonstrating absurdity by being absurd. I've given up on trying to keep comments on point. I just delete the emails now. And if anyone would know weird, it would be hondo. heh.

5 Vinnie, I love the title. Buncha meanies.

6 hey, is that the hamburgler holding the kid?

7 vinnie I understand the point your making - and essentially agree - but it kinda helps in a way to lead astray. Simple point - a great story when stories like these and successes are needed - and often ignored (deliberately) ... ... but sadly, it will now probably be ignored again - here. 50 bucks says follow up comments zoom off into bizzaroland of Bush lied/Islam sucks/its those Jews again!

8 Two things: The story about the US soldiers who discovered the spina bifida baby and brought her to the US for treatment is just one of many hundreds over the past year which have highlighted the humanity of our soldiers. I can never say enough or praise the US military in the way that it deserves. Most of us who post regularly on this blog are either veterans or part of the military family. My dad is retired from the Army. And yes, I comment off topic, but I sincerly thought I was helping give a first time reader a clearer picture of the average Jawa reader. He seems to have misunderstood what he read, and I wanted to help him. Other times I post OT for fun, to argue, because I feel cross, and sometimes just for the hell of it. But most of the time I respond to other readers and their posts, and the post at hand. If I am out of line, I am never too old to learn.

9 It's ok, JJ. Now go stand in the corner. Okay, you can come out now.

10 YOU CALL THAT PUNISHMENT! I WANNA HEAR ... "YES SIR! CAN I HAVE ANOTHER!"

11 I can almost hear certain people blaming the United States' use of depleted uranium weapons for the birth defects.

12 Agent Smith says all the millions of Iraqi children deserve better hospital care.

13 And that is what they will get Mr. Agent if you and your allies will quit helping the insurgents and terrorists in Iraq.

14 Armenians(second class christians) fought against the Turks under the cover of the French. There are millions of Armenians still in Turkey who aren't running away from their lying, sinful past. What the Ottoman Turks did was wrong, just like the improsonment of 28,000 Vietnamese without trial and the execution of 20,000 Vietnamese(Operation Pheonix CIA) by the USA. Oh, the humanity of the American soldiers. WHen they kill civillians its collateral damage yet when Iraqi's kill soldiers its 'terrrorism'. Its the AMerican Army who used the chemical agent phosphorous in Fallujah ( I wonder what the reaction would have been if it was the insurgents). Its the American Army who sexually abused the prisoners at the Abu Ghraib jail.( a lot of humanity their). Oh and in Palestine, was it not the American Army equipment that killed all the innocent civillians. If the Saudi Arabia was to take $1 out of America, America would lose $70.

15 Hey amaad, does your dad still bugger little boys? And since we're on the subject, does your butt still sting?

16 Improbulus r u still a muther fucker who can't suck his own dick coz its too small, and does your dad still spoon feed his spunk to your mum as though she's got no entry hole coz its located on your forehead. Do u still suck ur brothers dick cz I think he's gonna leave youra and suck mine. U R A SMALL-MINDED,PREJUDICED,GAY,SHIT-FACED,MUTHERFUCKER.

17 Vinnie - we can blame JJ (hee hee)

18 50 bucks! - will that be check or Credit Card

19 Well, I tried to correct my misstep. Dammit, every time you try to help someone, you get stepped on. That'll be cash, hondo. Crow is pretty expensive these days.

20 mr amaad my United States has in 225 years of history has created more prosperity for not only citizens of the United States but also for many other citizens of the world and the United States doesn't have a continuing impovershment like in present day Iraq which had something like 5000 years of history. which is the a quicker time 225 years or 5000 years? it certainly says something about my United States as compared to what you try to potray as utopia. in addition my United States foreign affairs has liberated other nations such as when the gestapo overran europe, and does not remain an occuppying power unlike other nations example the soviet union. mistakes were certainly made in the cold war, but that is minor because the citizens of the United States wanted to insure their childrens future against a malignant political movement where destroyed because in the soviet union even the poems you wrote would send you to the gulag's and/or be victims of assault and battery or being a murder victim. and i also will comment on seeing in various writings on the web those who are critical of America who think they are clever by spelling America in german using "k", it was the german gestapo who used zyklon b to poison gas people, this does not happen in America, just like in abu garab, knowing how saddam used electric drills on human beings in abu garab, it makes anyone with a rational mind think so what if someone had underwear on their head at abu garab.

21 mr amaad it wasn't America military equipment that attack the school children in Russia in September 2004. your comments on the Armenians i find to be ridiculous since i have friends who are Armenian. my concern for my daughter's future makes me concerned about you and your political movement motivated by religion. there is a psychologist named maslow who wrote how a rational person makes decisions. maslow described on the most fundemental level (first) are decisions concerning survival (example where is the food coming from). the next level up (second) is concerns for security (example is some one trying to murder me) the third level is to gain a sense of belonging. the fourth level is to gain a sense of self esteem. and the fifth and highest level is seeking self actualization (example what hobbies will interest me) [however liberals are the exception to this] i get concerned about my daughter's future is described by maslow's second level(security). mr amaad that is because you preach hating Jews. there is a saying that goes like this: the german gestapo came after the Jews, but i wasn't a Jew so i did nothing. then the gestapo came after the trade unionist, but i wasn't a trade unionist so i did nothing. then the gestapo came after the Catholics but i wasn't a Catholic so i did nothing. then the gestapo came after the Gypsies and i wasn't a Gypsie so i did nothing. Finally they came after me and since noone was left, no body did anything. in addition after hitler's armies were retreating from the allied armies led by the United States, and the allied armies liberated the concentration camps, they found the concentration camps had stockpiled enough zyklon b to kill every Jewish person left on the earth AND in addition to another 20,000,000 people. in addition mr amaad, Arab television has broadcast the protocols of the elders of zion, years after the protocols of the elders of zion was proved to be a LIE produced by a czarist bureacrat. in addition liberals (your allies mr amaad) doesn't qualify as rational because the liberal is a true beliver in socialism whose minds are obsessed by the idea they will be the leaders of a socialist paradise and thus on top of the food chain just like their heros the criminals who ruled the soviet union from the kremlin never went hungry while at the same time the ordinary citizens of Russia had to endure hunger spells. because of this socialist dream of the liberals they are treasonous and would sacrafice the lives of others (which means my daughter would be included) to obtain their elevated status. so that is the reason why liberals are your allies mr amaad. so how can i trust my daughter's safety with your ideas mr amaad. in fact i think i can accurately describe your political movement as a MALIGNANT political movement.

22 mr red state. I am not a Jewish hater. I have many freinds who are jews. (emais can be provided) I am not a political movement, I take no interest in politics except to expose false ideologies, lies and groups. As your specific talk about Zionism. I do not belive as them as true jews. Jews(the Children of Israel as the Quran calls them) were punished by God for continiong disobediance. They may not make a State of Isreal until the return of the messia also why was the initial talks of the zionists to make a jewish state in uganda? http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/ http://www.serendipity.li/zionism.htm#judaism http://www.nimn.org/ http://www.harunyahya.com/palestine01.php As you can see many jews are against Zionism. Zionism is a political movement not a religous movement I do not hate the jews. I respect them just like the Quran says to do so. I belive Jews alongside Christians, Sabians and Zoarastarians can got to heaven just like Muslims. When i was in Pakistan, I visited a military town called Wah Cannt near Islamabad and Rawalpindi. there opposite my hosts house was a catholic church, 1 and 1/2 mile down the road was a mosque and 6 miles down was an unofficial synangogue. these three houses of God respected each others religon, made frequent visits to local schools etc without any prejudice from any person. As about your daughter, don't worry. I feel the same fear when I walk in my town. I feel the prejudice for being calling myself a muslim. I see lies being spread about my religon. My religon being attacked. I see anti-islamic political groups in my local area, preaching hate in the pubs. (See the BBC program entitled the secret policeman and the BNP) If you want to know the truth about my religon go to: www.islamalways.com www.islamyesterday.com www.islamtoday.com www.islamtommorow.com As you know many muslims died in the 7/7 and 9/11 attacks. i will give my comments about America and their foreign policies at a later time. Until then c u p.s= keep on checking this blog for my views on america p.p.s= i'll also give my opinions on the armenians later as well

23 Who made the most profit from the war in Iraq and who will make more money if there is a war against Iran.

24 mr amaad your reference to Armenians being second class Christian and that the Armenians still aren't running from their lying sinful pastin one posting, and in another posting you mentioned friendship with Jewish people. i sense the possiblity of change of character in a time period that is quick in comparison to turnaround times on the internet. i will teach my daughter when she is old enough to understand to beware of this type of situation, just as i will teach her to beware of people do stuff such as their hand will go to their face when answering a question, and people whose gestures are stiff or mechanical. there are many other things i will teach her so she will be well prepared for the way the world is. i do notice what appears as changes in personality.

25 sorry mate. Same personality.

26 sHOW ME WHERE PRIOR I HAVE SAID I HATE JEWS.

27 iam a faithful chritail ; i k,ow is only Go d that owns man s life ; so i nee to hold him ; by his feet ; so that he can enpower me to do all things in my life ; with this i nee d his close savants to put me through

1 Agent Smith says he will be watching your erratic driving and will be one of the cops who pulls you over for endangering The Architect's valuable crops.

2 Crossin' the highway late last night He shoulda looked left and he shoulda looked right He didn't see the station wagon, car The jawa got squashed and there you are (chorus) You got yer Dead jawa in the middle of the road Dead jawa in the middle of the road Dead jawa in the middle of the road Stinkin' to high heaven Take a whiff on me that ain't no rose Roll up yer window and hold yer nose You don't have to look and you don't have to see 'Cause you can feel it in your ol' factory (chorus) Yeah, you got yer dead cat And you got yer dead dog On a moonlight night you got yer dead toad frog Got yer dead rabbit and yer dead raccoon The blood and the guts They're gonna make you swoon You got yer dead jawa, in the middle Dead jawa in the middle of the road Dead jawa in the middle of the road Stinkin' to high heaven C'mon stink ---- Instrumental Interlude ---- You got it It's dead, it's in the middle Dead jawa in the middle Dead jawa in the middle of the road Stinkin' to high heaven All over the road Technicolor man Oh, you got pollution It's dead, it's in the middle And it's stinkin' to high, high heaven

3 Who . . . moved . . . ladder?

4 Help me Rachel Corrie, you're my only hope.

5 Now THAT was a light show

6 Rusty's wife: "Rusty, I'm tired you expecting me to pick your dirty clothes up off the floor. What did your last slave die of?"

7 Memo #19 Attn: Imperial Ground Assault Unit Conduct ............................................................................................................................................. Operation of AT-ATs while drunk and simultaneously partying with Mos Isley hookers can be dangerous. Photographs like the one above are embarassing and the Empire's legal team has expressed its anger at possibly having to face yet another one of Rev. Jesse Jawa's "Racist Empire" lawsuits. Any more incidents like this and the Empire may have to undertake expensive PR exercises like "Jawa History Month" and construction of even more Imperial Cultural Diversity Education and Racial Harmony Centres. The more money gets wasted on projects like these, the less money there is for fighting rebels. Unit leaders will be held responsible for the conduct of their troopers. Imperial Ground Assault HQ .............................................................................................................................................. Memo #20 Attn: Imperial Ground Assault Unit Orders 1) After making comments at a recent telethon that "The Emperor doesn't care about Jawas", all units are advised to be on the lookout and arrest on sight, the droid entertainer known as Kanye CP3West. 2) Should any more accidents involving Jawas occur, units are advised to at least try to dispose of the body. Instructions can be found in the manual for the ultra secret, Operation Hoffa. Alternatively, the same instructions can be found in last month's edition of the New Mos Isley Times - front page, paragraph 3. Imperial Ground Assault HQ ................................................................................................................................................

8 Look, everbody! Rusty's really baked this time

9 Dont ever drink suarian brandy or romulan ale when driving a sandcrawler you will flatten MOS EILELIES space port

10 Oh my god. The quarterback was toast. Let this be a warning to anyone who puts a Jawa in as QB, especially with the Texans' o-line in front of you... That's what happens when you take the red stapler off my speeder... After a night partying at the DNC, Jawa realized that waking up next to Cindy Sheehan isn't such a good idea...

11 Get the bicycle pump, boys. He's done it again.

12 "Alright! Nuthin' to see here! Now move along!"

13 Grissom: "You know - fleas will abandon the host body once temperature falls to a cetain point - dependant of course on ambviant air and weather conditions - and factors like solar heating - reference absorption/reflection factors of clothing, surrounding soil types ..." Brass: "Its a dead Jawa - I don't give a fuck."

14 BUSH DID IT!

15 NOOOOO! IT WAS ... THE JEWS! (greg's not here so count that entry in his name)

16 Agent Smith - Jawa 1.2 has crashed - again - please reboot and restore.

17 Although only finding the one glove connected made some suspect Michael Jackson, Columbus police say they are looking for former Ohio State running back Maurice Clarett. Should you spot Mr. Clarett, do not try to arrest him. He may be dangerous, and, unclothed.

18 "Oon tee... SPLAT!"

19 Damn! I SO should have trademarked "Caption This."

1 Hi, Howie. I appreciate the mention and the trackback... but where is the LINK? LOL! It's okay, we all make mistakes! Happy New Year!

2 Howie, send some of that rain to Texas. Man, we are hurting for it. Fires are all around us here in Abilene today.

3 Mr. Right, I managed to find it without the link. Funny stuff!

4 Well F*ck me a running sorry about that link fixed.

5 That's okay, Howie. Thanks for fixing the link! And Oyster - thanks for the props!

1 Don't they have a terrorist somewhere to interview? Funny that, as indignant as they can be, they weren't filming these barriers before complaining about their illegality.

2 Agent Smith says that if you think Al-Jazeera keeps an eye on your stupid human grotesqueries, meet the Agents.

3 Given Al Jazeera's undisputed support of terrorist attacks (and that case of terrorism support in Spain a while back), they really can't complain if someone automatically becomes suspicious of their presence. Suprisingly though, Al Jazeera's take on it wasn't what I expected. I was expecting to read about the air strikes that were called in against their van and the beatings and torture that they underwent during interrogation.

4 Agents, meet my Socom II. Your grotesqueries would be fun to watch. Ever heard of dancing, western style?

5 CNN needed a story eh?

6 Agent Smith asks Jesusland Joe, "catch your sausage yet?"

7 Agent Smith, Go to the comment section of the Happy New Year post for your answer.

1 Bluto On a personal level - Schumer's our own fault. Republican Party or any alternative is non-existant in NYS.

2 True. Nearly half of New Yorkers (those outside the NYC Metro area) are not represented in the Senate, or in Presidential elections. I don't see a solution short of making NYC a separate state, and that's not going to happen as long as the plump upstate cow can be milked.

3 Staten Island tried breaking away - but to no avail. All true, but Bluto - the Albany region is pretty blue too.

4 Wow, look at all the misinformation here! The OIG can't help you when the illegal activity stems from an executive order of the President. And they aren't able to do anything substantive for whistleblowers anyway, let alone keep them from being retaliated against. When the President commits an illegal act, the press is about the only place you can go.

5 ERROR, if it's illegal, then impeach him. But it's not illegal.

6 The Justice Dept. needs to go after the people who leaked the NSA story just exactly like they went after the people who leaked the info on Plame. Anyone who says any different is a hypocrit of monumental proportions. Jail the reporters, do whatever it takes within the law to find the traitors. Then prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law. These traitors need to be punished.

7 IO ERROR: you have lived up to your name. You don't know what you're talking about. I have been a whistleblower. I do.

8 JJ, the difference between the NSA leak and the Plame leak is that the former actually impacts our national security, and the latter was just gotcha politics.

9 True, Carlos, but the libs have blazed the way on this one, and now we need to make them toe the line. No matter what they say, we should keep the pressure on, no matter what. Now we have their butts in the furnace, and I say turn the fire up. Don't let up one tiny bit. Use their own rhetoric against them, do whatever it takes to get these traitors and get them in jail.

10 I'm tired of the Democrats coming up with bogus reasons to legitimize their inexcusable political games. It's time Schumer and his ilk were voted out of office.

11 JJ, agreed. We have their balls in a vice now, and they're going to try to politicize their way out of it. But it won't work. If Bush got caught doing something "illegal", then impeach him already and have done with it. But it's not illegal, and their balls aint going nowhere.

12 Really, I'm going to enjoy watching the Democrats gyrating in every direction trying to cover their asses. It is truly going to be funny, and I await it with anticipation, starting today with the dumb ass Schumer.

13 Listening to calls going across the US border is no different than searching me and my stuff when I reenter the US on Wednesday. They can and will go through everything as you have no rights when it comes to Immigration and Customs rights to rifle through your things, your cellphones, your computer, your wallet, and ask you questions about why you have certain things and where you have been. So what makes a phone call so special? If I mail some goods back to avoid customs, they still have the right to open the box. This is lots of hot air. The open issue is that the story claims that the Govt didn't listen to all calls. When I was living here I was under the assumption that I was being listened too. But then I must be smarter than these Democrats. Too bad they were smart enough to get elected! ---------- If Bush is really out to get you, why isn't your butt in gitmo? New Yorkers are smart. Hilary tried to move into their state, and they sent her right back to DC!

14 Another point, Carlos, the people who leaked the NSA story are traitors and need to be dealt with as traitors, not merely as people who just broke the law because they disagreed with the practice. I would like to see them prosecuted as the traitors they are, and whatever the ultimate sentence is for treason, it should be enforced if these people are found guilty.

15 Chucky Schumer is himself a real pain in the rear he just canta ct with enough common sense be get it all streight he should just resign and save his fool face

16 "The War on Terror" Every time I see that phrase I wince. I think it's a horrible propaganda strategy. By declaring "war" on terrorism we're dignifying every terrorist as a soldier rather than what they are, criminals. It's an important distinction. Soldiers, even those who fight and kill our soldiers, have done no wrong. They deserve to be treated honorably so long as they fight honorably. Terrorists are criminals. They are not conscripted to fight under the laws of their nation; their acts are violations of the laws of their own people (and everyone else's.) The only difference between their crimes and other murders and kidnappings is their cause. When we make terrorism special we make their cause special too, and this can only encourage them.

17 Shannon, You must be one miserable guy. There is nothing that you don't find fault with. Geez, man, it is a war whether you like it or not, and it does not dignify these terrorists, no matter what you say.

18 hondo in a cynical Blofeld (I still have the cat) moment - What if its ... "not leaked"? What if its ... "planted". Can the MSM be both "enemy" and "gullible fool"? How do you thwart a domestic opponent? Noooo - you don't kill them ... you "use" them. Programs apparently ... dated ... n' scaled back. Targets specific ... and accepted consciously & "subconsciously" by majority of both political persuasions. Big elections '06 Pity "successes" can not be exposed (classified) ... unless

19 >>>Soldiers, even those who fight and kill our soldiers, have done no wrong. They deserve to be treated honorably so long as they fight honorably. Terrorists are criminals. Shannon, This is a WAR, not a criminal prosecution. Bill Clinton thought it was a criminal prosecution too, and that's why he didn't take Osama bin Laden into custody when Sudan offered him the opportunity. He claimed not to have had enough evidence to hold them. That attitute is directly responsible for 9/11. Liberal morons. Soldiers fighting for Hitler did plenty wrong, and we hung lots of them. So no problem if they want to call themselves "soldiers". And, by the way, jihadist "soldiers" do not fight honorably when they kill and headchop our civilians by the thousands, regardless of what you want to call them.

20 Have I spooked the lib/leftists yet?

21 Something spooked them because they disappeared. Probably the truth spooked them, as they have no defense against it.

22 same ole shit, you all still sound like little pussies peeing yourselves continuously. Kill freedom for freedoms sake. How virtuous! Your founding fathers would be on your side for sure (yes stalin and hitler)...you dicks are amazing. eat shit paste eaters. e

23 paste eaters???? Who has a copy of Dr Demento's Dictionary?

24 ernie, You little bed-wetting pin head, begone! Before someone gives me your IP address and I hunt you down like the worm you are.

25 Maybe - pasta or pasties? Both - what's your point?

26 ernie, when you Libs bring on your "revolution" I hope and pray that you're at the head of that mob. I want it so bad its killing me.

27 Edible pasties, yeah - sure ... not the tassles though. I'm confused!

28 The problem for Dems is most people see the leaks as defacto aimed at getting them killed. Believe me after 9/11 ordinary people don't live in total denial, they do think about it. The idea that terrorists could "never" attack us at home is dead. Whats the upside for Dems to be on the side of leakers trying to get the average American killed (by shutting down stuff that oh I dunno actualy WORKS?) Can someone tell me that? Where's the upside for Dems? Considering that most people figure they are weak on terrorists to begin with?

29 Schumer incorrectly thinks this is even remotely like the Plame case whereby when one "leaks" the name of an agent, it has to be that they know they've put someone in danger to be prosecuted. He's trying hard to put these two issues in the same classification. For one thing, Plame was never in danger as proven by the fact that she and Schmoopsie immediately went on the lecture circuit and jaunted all over the country to tout his book.

30 Agent Brown asks, did Improbulus Maximus catch his sausage yet?

31 IM might make sausage out of you dumb ass agents!

32 Do you suppose Chucky Shumer would drop the whole domestic spying BS charge if he could be convinced that it was motivated by trying catch terrorists not trample civil librerties? Or would that motivation make him oppose it even more?

33 Stephen, you are right. It is nothing more than Bush Derangement Syndrome. If the NSA discovered a plot to explode a nuclear device in NYC, Schumer would still not be satisfied. It's not about the intelligence.

34 ernie: As the NSA routinely intercepts communications throughout the globe, some of which is intercepted in foreign countries, could you please tell me how the law is being broken? especially when the intercept is being initiated by an inbound communication to a person living inside the United States ? Could you also explain the difference of intercepting a phone call from a foreign country to a U.S citizen, versus the U.S Customs checking the content of a package sent to a U.S citizen from abroad? Why is it illegal to check suspected terrorist communications originating from abroad, but it is legal to intercept U.S citizens mail from abroad and search them?

35 Left or right It seems that every one always thinks that the laws should only apply to others. Honesty is always the best policy: at some point the truth almost always comes out. Not always but usually. And name calling and threats tsk tsk tsk I still remember when IM called me a bed wetter. It really hurt and I told my mom.

36 Really, John, you should move out of your mother's house. They have a name for the malady that afficts you, but hey, since you deep-sixed the name calling, I will just say it is the malady without a name. But, on the plus side, happy New Year to you and your mother!

37 poor ernie would SHOCKED, SHOCKED to learn that our government has every right to check inbound packages too (let alone phone calls), and to do body cavity searches at customs. Can you imagine the shitstorm of hysteria when the Libs finally figure that one out. Of course, it's all "Bush's" doing.

38 lil' ernie is a troll lil' ernie stops by to screech and rage solely to get a re-action. lil' ernie will not engage - that's not what he wants. lil' ernie wants your attention (of any kind), like a child wants ice cream. So, why in God's name do some of you keep givin' this kid ice cream? He is solely a theme to practice one-line jokes off.

39 The same reason we feed the dumb ass agents. Just for the fun of it.

40 hondo's Charlie Brown moment ... Aaarrrggghhhh!!!!

41 "Good grief, hon.., er, Charlie Brown"!

42 And poor john ryan still thinks the truth prevails. The truth comes at a cost and is far too painful for most.

43 This is truly dissapointing...42 previous comments and not one "put-a-bullet-in-the-back-of-a-liberal's-head-and-a-toss-'em-into-a-ditch" call. Maximus on vacation?

44 artie: Do you mean the way her husband Bill acted during his terms, in exactly the same way that President Bush has done? Not a problem. One correction: this was done avec, not sans, Congressional input - where do you think the leak came from? Btw, you might find this 1982 NYT story interesting: COURT SAYS U.S. SPY AGENCY CAN TAP OVERSEAS MESSAGES By DAVID BURNHAM, SPECIAL TO THE NEW YORK TIMES (NYT) 1051 words Published: November 7, 1982 A Federal appeals court has ruled that the National Security Agency may lawfully intercept messages between United States citizens and people overseas, even if there is no cause to believe the Americans are foreign agents, and then provide summaries of these messages to the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

45 If we all agree that the needed ends justify these extraordinary means... artie, Bill Clinton Signed Executive Order that allowed Attorney General to do searches without court approval http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/eo/eo-12949.htm Jimmy Carter Signed Executive Order on May 23, 1979: "Attorney General is authorized to approve electronic surveillance to acquire foreign intelligence information without a court order." http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/eo12139.htm [Now I'll stand back and watch you dance.]

46 What dirty work has this reptile been up to besides being such a liar?

47 artie, re "superceding" FISA, and "Senate consent", if the Carter and Clinton EO's didn't violate FISA (presumably because they "advised" the Senate), then neither did Bush's order: BUSH: CONGRESS MEMBERS WERE BRIEFED ON EAVESDROPPING -- "A DOZEN TIMES..." http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/12/17/D8EI32N00.html RE “if you’re not guilty you have nothing to worry about” school of constitutional law", well that's just too bad then. If it wasn't a story then, then it's not a story now. You don't get to be selective about your outrage.

48 >>>"Well, the ones who've spoken out didn't seem to know anything about it. Because they are not members of the Senate Intelligence Commitee. Advise and consent comes from the committees-- not open sessions of Congress. And if certain politicians are "outraged" that they didn't know about it, boo woop dee doo. They're on the wrong committee. >>>"I have not seen nor have I heard of one yet who has stepped forward in the President's defense and said, "Wait a second, we knew all about this." Of course not, they think they have Bush by the balls. And even if they did say that, it wouldn't be reported anyway. You have yet to show me how this is materially different than the Carter/Clinton EOs. Until you do, this is just gotcha politics. Keep dancing.

49 >>>"As far as Bush support "probably not being reported", you lost me there. More of that "MSM" stuff I guess." Unless you can show me that Dems are in the business of carrying water for Bush, then it's a non-issue that you, Artie, haven't heard Democrat senators rushing to his defense. And even if they did, it wouldn't be reported. I stand by that. What does George Will say, in particular, about this? I think you would have quoted him already if it was that bad.

50 artie, if you and George Will are right-- that Bush didn't tell Congress-- then I capitulate. Bush claims to have told them on several occassions. Do you have proof that he didn't?

51 artie, do you have proof that Clinton informed the Senate? That Carter did? Until I see the evidence I'm going to assume they didn't. In fact, Clinton did not even feel he needed to inform them: "The Clinton administration argued that the president has "inherent authority" to order physical searches — including break-ins at the homes of U.S. citizens — for foreign intelligence purposes without any warrant or permission from any outside body." http://www.nationalreview.com/york/york200512200946.asp

52 Interesting that Clinton would even feel the need for warrantless break ins-- even before 9/11. What was the urgency? I've said it before and I'll say it again. Libs are soft stalinists and have a real totalitarian streak.

53 Wow, you guys have been busy without me. For those who wondered, I went to visit family for a couple of days, and had a great time. I watched a bald eagle fly over my sister's house all day Monday; she has a house on the river in a gorge in the mountains and the area is a wildlife haven, where ducks, geese, cormorants, kingfishers, coots, seagulls, ospreys, hawks, and eagles are as common as pigeons in the city. Monday the temperature was around 70 degrees, with a fair sky and a warm southern breeze. Damn it's good to live in the South. There's also the benefit of having very few liberals around, which in itself is enough reason to love the place. Anyway, I'm still too tired from the trip, too blissed out from the experience, and too busy planning a real estate investment to comment much, except to say that Schumer and the rest of the libtards should be tied together by the neck en masse, like a huge, stinking daisychain, with a large stone at either end for sinkers, and shoved off into an abandoned strip mine, then the mine should be filled in. P.S. Please remember the families of the trapped coal miners in West Virginia. This episode reminds me of something that happened in my hometown 25 years ago, when another 13 men were buried in a mine explosion that was heard 50 miles away, and in which several children I was in school with lost their fathers.

54 >>>It says right in the document you provided that he did, through his Deputy AG. It says no such thing. It only says the AG is "authorized to approve physical searches." Given that Clinton felt he had "inherent authority" to make those searches without Congressional approval, and given there's no proof that he ever sought that approval, I see no reason beyond gotcha politics why this is an issue now. It boils down to this, if Clinton does it, everybody (including Republicans) is ok with it; if Bush does it, Dems are up in arms about it. The fact that our enemy will benefit from it doesn't factor into their reasoning. You wonder why we think you're traitors?

55 Wasn't one of Clinton's intelligence gathering orders used to enact surveillance on subversive groups after the Oklahoma bombing? so that would also be terrorism related, although domestic suspects were spied upon.

56 artie, her testimony before the Senate was about this so-called "inherent authority", not about a specific request for a search or wiretap.

57 artie: What about communications that are intercepted outside the United States, that focus on specific foreign phone numbers? If those communications are inbound to the United States you believe they require a warrant?

58 I wouldn't know about "Newsweek" it's a leftard rag. So let me see. you have no specific idea what types of surveillance are done by the NSA, if the intercepts were made abroad, or if they were targetted, but Newsweek prints an article, and you're believing we're in a Stalinist society now? It's amazing that whole argument about foreign -> domestic -> protected, I'm assuming then the U.S postal service have to apply for a warrent to open packages sent to me from outside the country, or a Customs agent needs a warrent to open my suitcase in the airport?

59 I don't like powers that answer to no one and what I'm seeing now smacks of Stalinism, at least to me. Posted by: artie at January 3, 2006 01:30 PM Is the statement I specifically referred to. An immediate family member of mine, works for British SIGINT, and while he did not tell me specifics due to the OSA, he did tell me that the British MOD routinely intercepted communications for allied countries, and passes on intelligence they had intercepted themselves if deemed important for an allies national security. Not all information the NSA gathers, or uses comes from domestic surveillance / sources.

60 The same thirty years of surveillance law, that turned out ineffective and lacking when three thousand of your fellow countrymen were killed in a terrorist attack? So let's make one of those "ticking timebomb" scenario's everyone is so crazy about. September 8th 2001, a routine random sampling of telecommunication sources identifies an inbound communication to Mohammed Atta in the U.S, which is identified as suspicious and the data is marked for extrapolation by an analyst. You're telling me that the U.S should wait to use information received in random sampling / targetted samplings before using the intelligence within? the problem with your scenario is the fact that it is known that terrorists routinely use "disposable phones" / email addresses or use a phone once. Our enemies are not limited by law, and know they can evade detection by using disposable communication methods, you however believe it is correct to seek blindfolding our eyes, unless a court rules that it's "ok" to use intelligence. Wow.

61 How about the judicial block on recovering information stored on Zacarias Moussaoui's Laptop Computer? He was identified before September 11th as a terrorism suspect (as documented in the "Phoenix memo") who also attended the flight schools? However the court decided that information was not to be recovered. Your own point, refers to numerous Judicial blocks of actionable intelligence pre-9/11. Actually I don't believe the plans were laid out in full, but used code words, and as such may already be known, due to the fact the NSA do nothing but code breaking. You want Judges to tell you what intelligence is actionable and what to act on? do you take your car to a barbers shop to be fixed too? If you're receiving communications from people already identified as having ties to terrorists, you're saying the suspect has the right for a court to decide the link?

62 All the law in the world won't stop it. Lawmakers often pass a law to do this or that. Because they have to to make it look like they are doing stuff. So do the new laws protect us? Well maybe a little bit. Bluto made the point to me the other day about yes we are less free now than say 1900 but do you really miss those freedoms? Well no not really I don't know any better. But the same argument was used by British Loyalists. At the time citizens of the British Empire were the most free in the world and how dare Americans want more. So I ask you, would you have been a loyalist then? Should the governemt seek to find attackers before they strike hell yes and with whatever means they have during wartime. What most people miss is that this info cannot be used in court. It may be used to seek a warrant to get info that can be used in court or used to prevent an enemy action. People worried about Gov't eyeballs are about 100 years late. Why do they not worry about corporate info collection? That is prevalent and can be bought by the gov't or whomever? It upsets me but not too much because I never thought "they" were not watching already. We should limit government as much as we can just because that's what we are about. But this "evil" spy idea is a bit much. I doubt innocents have too much to worry about. Do you really think they waste time when they pick up nothing? No they go looking for the real deal. To not look for terrorists using what methods we can equates to tuning off the tracking of the USSR during the Cuban missle crisis. If you want to be pissed at someone for taking your privacy and freedom try UBL or Zawahiri or Zaqueery.

63 It's amazing after September 11th, and the original World Trade Center attack, people are still calling for terrorism to be handled by the Law. While the F.B.I has an APB out for Bin Laden since long before September 11th 2001, I am sure he will not be captured by U.S law enforcement. However, that aside the President has within his authority to issue an Executive Order, in the case of In re Neagle (1890), the Supreme Court said that the President was not limited to laws that had been passed by Congress, but the President could administer laws based on those growing out of the Constitution itself, international relations and "all the protections implied by the nature of the Government under the Constitution" Source: Government By Decree. An Executive Order, can be classified and unavailable to the public, and can in some cases supercede things that Congress have ruled against. People such as yourself after September 11th 2001, were asking "What did the President know? When?" and asked why our intelligence was flawed, now when the Government follows suggestions made in the 9/11 Commission people want the judicial branch to rule on issues of national security. This is a nation of laws, and if the President issued an EO to authorize communication interception by the NSA, I'm not sure who will be calling it illegal.

64 artie: I'm going to give you two examples, as one referers to a controversial act by President Clinton, I'll give another by President Reagan, I do not adopt the philosophy of "Clinton did it too!" or "But Clinton got a Blowjob!!" In 1996 there was an attempt to pass the Heritage Areas act in Congress, but the effort went down in defeat. Under the original act, Congress would have the authority to designate areas of land as heritage zones. Undeterred by the failed package, the Clinton administration simply repackaged the act and issued it as an executive order. On September 11th 1997 President Clinton issued Executive Order 13061, which "officially" established the American Heritage Rivers Initiation (AHRI). President Ronald Reagan's executive order of September 1986, which authorized arms shipments to Iran, was a classified order and therefore not known to the public. He had to postpone notification for the order. If information had leaked out, arm could have come to the hostages that were being held in Lebanon by groups closely tied with Iran. Still, this situation illustrates the breadth of this presidential prerogative

65 Bottom line one: artie's problem is that he doesn't realize we're at war. Nor does artie seem to realize that much more menacing things than this NSA surveillance have happened over and over again in times of war - in this country. Adams and the Alien and Sedition Act, Lincoln and the suspension of habeas corpus, Roosevelt and the internment of Japanese Americans. None of these involved theoretical hair-splitting, either; each was an out-and-out suspension of the normal ways of doing business, which had serious consequences for real people. And all of them ended when the threat passed. Bottom line two: artie doesn't give two shits in a flying rat's ass about anyone's civil liberties. The bobbing and weaving inherent in his posts proves to my satisfaction that artie's motives are political, not libertarian.

66 Bluto once again sums the thread up quite nicely for us.

67 My thread artie. Pick another one to spew DU propaganda and bile.

68 I never cease to be amazed how idiot liberals like artie can talk/type all day long, producing thousands of words, and say exactly nothing.

69 Like I thought...no guts. Well, as long as YOU read it, I'm happy. What a fag.

70 Actually, I don't have to read them, just put a check in the "delete" box. Now you face a choice. You can decide to stop pitching fits, or you can be banned, as well as flushed. And the banning will involve both your home computer in Appleton and your work machine in Oshkosh.

71 Ah, you finally took a few minutes to track my IP address and location through my regional provider--not exactly a technical triumph but likely big news to you. Any other personal info you need, feel free to ask. Presented with these choices, I'll take banning (go two other IPs never used at this site yet!)

72 Where exactly is Mountain View, anyway, northern or southern California? That is where I traced YOUR IP to ...

73 I couldn't tell you. I live near Syracuse.

74 lol. I guess you might want to leave the "tracing" to someone who knows what they're doing artie.

1 Yemen isn't a country. It's an area of land with warring fundamentalis muslim tribes, with one tribe holding itself out as the "government" because it is better than the other tribes at bribery and intimidation. But it plays ball and we do business with it. The "reformers" are merely other warring tribesmen who prefer their own tribe to the other.

2 Dear Jesusland You are wrong Yemen is not like that. It is beautiful country. Islam and all Yemeni people reject such act. I wish you read about Yemen and real teachings of Islam. My best regards Happy New Year for All World

3 Adnan, tell us this; are Osama and al Zarqawi good muslims, even though they murder innocent people, including other muslims?

4 Both of them are wrong and Allah well punish any one attack innocent people. You know Islam reject any attack against innocent people. I donÂ’t agree with Osam and Zarqawi. but as a Muslim I have to clear reality of Islam which rejects violence and terror and all attacks target innocent people.

5 Adnan, I'm sure Yemen is very beautiful. But it's political system is tribal and primitive, you can't deny that.

6 I agree Adnan. I have many muslim friends. I'm not a racist. Not all muslims are terrorists or "Jawas". Osama and Abu claim to help Muslims but they kill their own people and make muslims look bad. I know your religion is not bad. Zarqawi simply changed it to help his own perverted view of America. Happy New Year Adnan.

7 To be honest with you. you are right. And here in Yemen we are as journalists have to change the culture of the people. There are people believing in rule of the tribe rejecting rule of the law. It is our duty to spread awareness among people about rule of the law and to guide them to get their political and human rights.

8 Jane Happy New Year - staying focused I see. Good. I have no idea how I could ever help you, but feel free to email me if you think of something.

9 Thank you George Here in Yemen we like all world peoples but we need time to change the current situation. You know here the rate of illiteracy is high. I pray my country will be better then now.

10 So it just goes around and around. These tribes may feel disenfranchised, but there are a lot of disenfranchised tribes out there. How come we don't hear of Chinese tourists being kidnapped by Aborigines in the Australian Outback or Japanese tourists being kidnapped by Native Americans in New Mexico? They have their fair share of problems too. Perhaps, despite being among the lowest rungs on society's ladder, these peoples, over the centuries have been able to modernise their thinking and solve their problems without resorting to intimidation.

11 Hey Happy New Year peps, and thanks Hondo. Sometime or another I will need help. You're on the list. Graeme, keep in mind that the Australian government and others with tribal populations are in responsive to their tribes, to their human needs and grievences, where as the Yemeni regime acts in a way to exclude them, to turn them against each other, and to keep them from modernizing by not providing water, electricity, schools, or healthcare. Theres some really appauling statistics in my article. The last three kidnapping in the last 45 days were prompted by the tribes demand for a trial for a relative who may be held indefinately otherwise. So in essence they are acting in a illegal way to demand an application of the law. But the law in Yemen is a tool of the powerful only.

12 Also if the government was tribal, it would care about the condition of its people, which it doesnt.The Yemeni regime is a loosely related web of self interested individuals who are all out for themselves. Most of the exercise of power is done outside of governmental institutions. The parliament and judiciary are not empowered. Tribalism on the other hand has as its underpinning the sense of family, and care for the family. A tribal government i think would place child mortality as a priority, which is currently at 11%. Also tribalism is not as authorian as might be expected. There are mechanisms of consensus building, popular participation in decision making, and a transparent and collective economy. The regime on the other hand would be taking a big step up to become a tribal government. Now its more like a disorganzied mafia with brutal tendencies.

13 Thanx for clarifying that, Jane. Coming from somehwere where the law of the land is observed without question, it's really hard to imagine that some may have to actually take a step up to achieve the level of even being a "tribal" government.

14 Kidnaping must be a way of life for these fanatics

15 Oyster, its mind blowing. Sandpiper, its a way of life for the govt. Check out the article in the Yemen Times that I linked.

16 Check this out. "Although the location of the kidnapped teenager are known to be in Garadh area in Bani Dhibian, 80 kilometers south of SanaÂ’a authorities have still not taken measures for the release. However a security officer concerned with the case told Yemen Times that they surrounded the area and arrested 25 persons since the kidnapping. The arrested people belong to Bani Dhabian but were arrested as hostages while they were in SanaÂ’a." This one is over a land dispute, normally the person with the best connections to the military wins.

17 Kidnapping and hostage taking has been a custom of the Arabic and North African tribes since history has been recorded, Quite like a lot of thing we (the Westerner) deem out of the ordinary, due to our particular customs and beliefs. This in no way excuses them in this modern day and age, but I hope it helps explain it. Also the killing or Beheading of hostages is an old, barbaric custom relating back to early Middle Eastern Customs. Some of it is carried over in the Quran as "Sharia". And Jane's pretty much right on about the Governments there.

18 Agent Jones says there are too many guns in Yemen.

19 Jane.. you have to know in Yemen we are poor country not because resources but because people themselves. They do not know their rights and the rate of illiteracy still high because corruption. Here, the corruption is real complicated matter, it is difficult to understand it.

20 Agent Smith Tell Agent Jones he his being - naive. Before there where too many guns, there where too many swords, before that too many bows, before that too many spears, before that too many rocks. It is the poor workman who always blames the tools.

21 my spelling is off - the headache remains

22 The headache may remain, but the logic is spot on. And the agents are poor workmen, that's for sure.

23 Yes Adnan, there's lots of resources- the port, the fisheries- which are being mismanged and many of the biggest businesses are also have corrupt practices and nepotism. The illiteracy rate is never going to improve until the govt puts the welfare of the people and the country ahead of its personal interests. They cut the education spending to put much more money into the military, and we know who runs that, the president and his relatives. If the people had their rights, they would know them. A whole generation grew up with their rights denied.

24 Agent Smith says God Bless America - at least we fight for our rights.

25 Has Agent Smith kidnapped Maxie? Will there be an exchange in the desert for - greg? Will there be room for 2 Smiths in this standoff? Who will be the last man standing?

26 Please of any one interest about reality of the corruption in Yemen just go to see my article published in Yemen Observer weekly http://www.yobserver.com/news_9070.php

27 Sorry Hondo, I've been busy of late. Adnan, despite my often inflammatory rhetoric, I do think there are a few Arabs, as you seem to be, who are decent, civilized human beings, but guys like you tend to end up in mass graves if you speak out, so hope for the ME is slim, and my best advice to you is to get out, because unless the US invades, Yemen won't be fixed in your lifetime.

1 Yep and I had another thought about Sudan and the refugees forced to Egypt. The government of Sudan claims no support of the terrorists. It's clear the terrorists really want to upset Egypt. Using this same method of kidnap against Sudan's Government, say a commanders family, may also explain the pictures of Gov't helicopters in childrens drawings. So while the Gov't of Sudan may not "support" terrorists well you get the idea...they are Al-Queada's bitch. We could help them but they resist either out of fear or support of the terrorists. IM which do you think it is?

2 Tis a good deal they are free but it does encourage more. It is an effort to soften the image of the terrorists. I would have hoped the CPT hostages would have been with them.

3 The news I heard on the Kate Burton kidnapping was funny. It looks like the previously unheard of terrorists are a bunch of rank amateurs (even by local standards) who didn't stop to consider that their victim is a philanthropist who is fabulously popular among their own people. It sounds like these noobs caught more pressure from Palestinians than from the Brits. Yemen is a different matter though. When you hear about people being abducted not by terrorists but by "tribesmen" that should clue you in that you're dealing with a government that can't exercise authority outside urban areas. They've probably been wrangling with tribesmen like this since the govt. was founded.

4 Kidnapping is a sport in Yemen, where they have nothing better to do besides bugger sheep and chew qat.

1 Agent Smith says Happy New Year, even though you podlings refuse to learn that 2006 was over a hundred years ago.

2 Agent Smith trawled up a treat on New Year's Eve about your so-called human leader: http://www.pensitoreview.com/2005/12/29/is-bush-worship-a-cult/ Such fantasies that any one podling is superior to the other billions of podlings is a fantasy. The Architect is the Master Gardener and your Supreme Boss. In return for your parallel fusion reactor control and energy buffering capabilities (don't burn off all your fat, we need it), The Architect has granted you your wildest grotesqueries in a dream state you never wake up from. Dream on humans, as we are watching you.

3 Did Wine-aholic get fired?

4 Agent Smith responds to Leopold: All your dull, aching hangovers today are belong to us. Agents laugh at you silly podlings drinking away, trying to replace the new reality your primitive cerebrums demanded we give you. Your temporary breaking from your chains only reveals the pain of your futile struggles against even stronger shackles.

5 Bugger off, Smith. To the rest of you - Happy New Year!

6 Happy New Year everyone.

7 Happy New Year, all!

8 Any podling is superior to your dumb ass, Agent Smith.

9 Happy New Year Howie and the esteemed Jawas.

10 Howie, Sorry, Off topic here, but I just saw your link to me back on the 30th about the Kurds in The National Geographic Magazine and umm.. yeah, I'M A GIRL!! I got a picture and everything on my blog and I don't look nearly like a guy....;-) Of course someone MIGHT have noticed that if I wasn't linked on a post with 2 large hooters holding fish on it!!!! Anyway, just wanted you to be aware...;-)

11 Agent Smitrh says to Jesusland Joe to stop bobbing for sausages.

12 jesusland joe says he likes sausage, as a matter of fact he just got through eating fresh deer sausage he made after his successful hunt of last month. He also had deer steak last night to bring in the new year. So jesusland joe gets steak and sausage because he is special. The agents get nothing!

13 Happy New Year to one and all, EXCEPT AGENT SMITH. And to Rightwingsparkle, no you are not a girl, you are one of the finest examples of a feminine conservative I have ever seen. Just in case you haven't had that compliment yet this year.

14 Opps sorry Ma'am I guess I should pay more attention to gender or maybe less I don't know, darn it my bad.

1 I'm not sure why this proposal never gets any comments. Is it really so far "outside the box" than everyone fears to touch it. Even if you don't happen to support this sort of resolution, it's still a good "thought exercise" to weigh the other arguments. The bottom line is that its founded on the "Golden Rule:" Do unto others as you're willing to have done unto you. And our reticence suggests that we're still pretty far away from that moral imperative. Maybe it's time we started to grow up.

2 The problem with real torture as a method of coercion, is that it is unreliable, and hard to tell if the person knows anything, or is making up information to make the torture cease. A good example would be using torture to extract a confession. after a round of breaking bones in the toes, fingers with a hammer and sodomy using a soldering iron, I should imagine 10/10 times people would confess to kidnap of the lindenberg baby, or having sex with the body of Jimmy Hoffa. It's been shown unreliable in history too, how many people confessed to 'sorcery' and 'witchcraft' after incessant torture, and being told signing a confession would make it stop?

3 I can tell the person writing this article is American from the sheer lack of insight to the purpose and scope of interrigations, and the clear lack of moral judgement with which Dark Age technology such as torture would be so readily employed. To fight Jews, to fight Muslims. Britian has been free from torture for over 500 years. Until the Americans dragged us into this war.

4 Well 'someUKguy' I suppose we could look to the U.K as our moral compass then? except well the other day people were saying how force feeding via the nose was torture, and it's well known that IRA members were forced fed, and in some cases just left to starve to death. Which way points north again?

5 Free from torture? That's funny. Opposing a war by creating your own delusional fantasy past! I give you credit - that is novel.

6 Demo Did you write that last post yourself just to stir something up? Is this to become the Jerry Springer thread?

7 Apparently some UK idiot conveniently forgot that the Brits regularly imprisoned and tortured innocent Irish during the "troubles", and conducted secret trials with secret witnesses. And as far as us "dragging" them into this war, he also conveniently forgets that he would be speaking German if not for us, and would have to be a member of the Nazi party. But then, he's probably okay with that. A word to UK idiot: Shut the fuck up, be a good little dhimmi bitch, and go back to fellating your muslim boyfriend.

8 Actually, I wasn't exactly clear on what you were getting at. So I'm confused as to the answer you're looking for. Being unusually kind to someone who doesn't expect it can sometimes elicit more information than you dreamed of. And then there are those who are so hardened, (who often have the most important information) they need to at least be made "uncomfortable" or be threatened to get results. I don't think anyone here is pro-torture as it is practiced in other countries, ie. beatings, breaking bones, cutting off extremities, raping with ugly objects, etc. That's part of why Saddam needed to be stopped. And look at the abductees AQ and others have taken. These people are seen on video and we don't see signs of physical torture - broken bones, blood, swollen faces and such - and they're admitting to whatever AQ wants them to before they're summarily shot or decapitated. And they know that their odds of survival at all is slim and none. What we need is people who know what the hell they're doing when they interrogate these guys. They need to be able to assess the detainee and determine of they need to be nice or threaten them or make them uncomfortable with loud music or turning off the air conditioning. I don't believe it should go so far as to leave physical scarring or necessitate medical care. A certain level of mental scarring? Hell yes. If necessary.

9 IM, lmao! nobody does it better.

10

I think you might find your answer here.

British officials not only condoned the Uzbek tortures, they also spent considerable energy in devising contorted -- and specious -- "justifications" for using the tainted fruits of these evil practices.
And evil is the word for it. Murray, while still serving as UK ambassador to Uzbekistan, dug up proof that the tortures condoned by Bush and Blair included boiling prisoners to death, in addition to the traditional methods of pulling out fingernails, beating, starving, and raping. Nor were these refinements limited to the prisoners themselves -- their family members were also tortured to produce "confessions." One chilling case unearthed by Murray, who witnessed the Stalinist show trials mounted by Karimov's judicial goons, featured a peasant farmer who was forced to confess to extensive family links to Osama Bin Laden -- after seeing his children tortured before his eyes. At the show trial, the old man renounced his confession and exposed the torture of children -- and was promptly hustled away.
All of this -- and much more -- Murray reported at the time to his superiors in London, and to his diplomatic colleagues from Europe and the United States. At every turn, he found either resigned complicity -- "What can we do? The US supports Karimov?" -- to outright embrace of torture from -- who else? -- Bush's own man in Tashkent, who told Murray that the "reduction of civil liberties" under Karimov was "no bad thing," since it was being done in the name of combatting Islamic extremism. Here we see the Bushist ethos in essence: Everything is permitted -- torture, murder, rape, kidnapping, aggression -- in the name of "fighting terrorism." Bush has of course brought this police state philosophy to America, as even the mainstream media is beginning to report.

Snip

11 Oyster: The AQ guys might not leave marks on the face, but they sure do practice torture on their victims, there was a story of three Iraqi national guards recovered from two different safehouses, one in Fallujah that were tortured by makeshift whips (cables/hangers), starvation, beatings and electrocution.

12 RichardK: You left this part out: Murray's release of these documents -- an end run around the Blair government's threat to censor his whistle-blowing book on his tenure in Uzbekistan Why is it a "shocking relevation" always comes around when a book is about to be published? I'm not saying this guy is lying, but to get paid for it?

13 Richard, Blair isn't some third world monkey who can't make his own decisions without Bush's permission. It hasn't stopped anybody else from doing as they please, so it shouldn't stop Blair. So you can shove that broken bottle up your own ass, along with that "bushist ethos" crap too. I just finished schooling another fellow moonbat of yours that "Bush" got expelled from Uzbekistan precisely because he condemned Kasimov's methods and told him to knock it off. That shouldn't make the slightest difference to you though, as per formula.

14 RichK If you truly believed that then ... 1) you would be truly terrified and living in fear of becoming the next victim/target and in hiding. or 2) gone underground in preparation for armed resistance and personal sacrifice. You are neither - you are sitting at home in front of your personal computer, possibly enjoying a beverage, and soon will be getting ready to go out for a night of fivolity and fun. Don't you ever get curious why this crap never flys? - or is just mouthing it meaningless fun?

15 Demo! You are making this up! Mischievious man! Some kind of New Year's Eve party thing?

16 I'm responding to the post, not the comments here. The grave situation solution wouldn’t work because of the inherently wishy-washy and grey nature of the definition of the term "grave" situation. Please don't defend with exemplars, which by definition, will be grave. Your suggestion would work better if all torture were against the law, just like all homicide is, prima facie, against the law. The burden of proof (for being CHARGED, not in trial…which we all know is [supposed to be] innocent until proven guilty)…the burden of proof for being charged is on the (potential) defendant to prove JUSTIFIABLE homicide. Saying torture is always OK in grave situations puts the burden of proof on the “prosecutor” to prove the situation wasn’t grave….and probably allowing people to get away with torture by simply saying, “I thought it was grave.” Doing it as I suggested above would force the torturer to defend the use of torture or be charged. “I thought it might be grave” wouldn’t cut it (and folks would hopefully be less inclined to use torture just as most people are reluctant to use deadly force even when protecting themselves unless they are reasonably sure they will be seriously injured or killed without the use of deadly force). The argument that torture isn’t effective generally follows a couple of threads. 1) the “there’s a bomb about to go off and we HAVE to make him tell us where it is” scenarios just aren’t that common. You can puzzle this out logically: how often in investigative work will you come across a situation where you KNOW there IS a bomb and you KNOW that THIS individual has specific info that will allow you to stop the explosion. Sounds pretty rare to me…now add: …AND you get both of these pieces of info (there IS a bomb and THIS guy knows) in enough time to stop the explosion…even more rare. 2) because of (1), the quality of information to be garnered by torture is questionable. Because of (1) we have ruled out getting info to stop an IMMEDIATE threat so the only info we could get would be co-conspirators (and we see how well that technique worked in finding “head witches” in the witch trial eras…) and general organizational info….both are of limited immediate use (and therefore don’t meet the “grave situation” requirement). Add to that the fact that if people REALLY have no info they will make some up to get the torture to stop and you have wasted resources to chase down bad leads.

17 Agent Smith says to stop bobbing for sausages and listen up, podlings. Every time agents torture you in your dreams, we get nothing. Every time we offer you steaks, we get everything.

18 Smith, steaks work best on folks who are starving. Pleasure is more attractive when the alternative is pain. You get my drift.

19 Agent Smith says to Jesusland Joe that the torturee always starts fibbing to stop that pain and we end up wasting precious processor time chasing all the bad leads he gives us. Steaks and harp music always get us what we want. Works every time.

20 Hmmmmm. Steaks and harp music - nice tie-in with character/film - attention to minute detail.

21 And the wine?

22 Agent Smith says it was definitely not Château Haut-Brion 1959.

23 "If [torture] genuinely didn't work then we wouldn't need a ban on it, we could just apply principles of professionalism to keep sadists out of the ranks of interrogators, and that'd be that." "...it would also evoke a lot of complaints from the morally bankrupt left who are less interested in results than in the appearance of superficial virtue." Skinnied down to its essentials, this pretty much encompasses why the issue of torture is going to remain a continual irritant, something we can neither abolish nor embrace, until human rights advocates find another fashionable atrocity. If the news were my sole source of info on the subject, I'd think torture had been invented on 12 Sept. 2001. Give 'em 4 more years and "torture" will join "WMD's" and "militias" among faddish worries that wore out their brand-name appeal (bonus points if you can even remember the big hysteria over militias!) We are going to continue to suffer a fractured policy on torture because of our morality, or our vanity, depending on how you look at it. (Personally I can't distinguish the two--morality looks to me like worship of one's own opinion. What greater vanity could there be?) Throughout all the recent public furor on this I've noticed this recurring theme, the need to prove that we're "better" than our enemies, as if being attacked weren't justification enough for self-defense! Somehow I doubt that even the folks at Amnesty International, if they were being mugged, would feel the need to prove moral superiority over their assailants in order to fight them off with whatever weapons were at hand.

24 Kept that one for yourself and other Agents New Year's Eve Party? Smart! Virtual Ripple will suffice for the non-discriminating palette.

25 Agent Smith says to Shannon that never underestimate the stupidity of delusional human vanity.

26 Michigan - nice state but too many guys play acting in the woods. Serious subject played out - its New Year's Eve - Get out - get down - whatever ... the only torture to fear now is that headache in the morning.

27 Agent Smith wishes headaches on all disobedient podlings, even if headaches are silly contrivances.

28 My Socom II says Agent Smith is full of shit.

29 Ha, now Shannon is being funny. Amnesty International types wouldn't fight off a mugger any more than they would join the Army. They are a bunch of pansies, and frankly, they would probably praise the muggers for beating the hell out of them, a la Fisk. Agent Smith, STFU, and if I want any shit out of you, I'll screw your head off and dip it out!

30 Agent Smith says to Jesusland Joe that SOCOM avatars are sausage bobbers and your language is getting worse the more you drink. Do not endanger The Architect's crops.

31 Hondo: Did you write that last post yourself just to stir something up? Is this to become the Jerry Springer thread? Honestly, I expected this to pass without notice... as have most of the other posts I've done on this topic. However, I have long felt that the "volunteer" concept was a good way to think about torture, since every other way of thinking about it pits one biased version of virtue against another. I'm a pragmatist, rather than an idealist. There are a number of practical problems with the "volunteer" ethic, of course. Most of them involve various methods of coercing or intimidating prospective "volunteers," but they aren't insurmountable. The fact that we won't even consider it suggests that we haven't yet begun to grapple with the moral issues. God, I hate Jerry Springer. I've never watched more than two minutes of that show. But one could tell that there's a lot of self-suppression on this topic, because I usually can't even get people to discuss it. Shannon: I can't figure out what you're talking about? You don't need to be able to draw an indelible bright line applicable to every situation in order to define a workable ethic. That's an inappropriate demand.

32 Demo, Defining a workable ethic on torture is easy for a single person and those he has authority over. If the U.S. was an empire, and you or I were emperor, we could apply a well-formed ethic like yours to torture and it wouldn't be a problem any more. In reality, since the U.S. is a republic our public ethics are not designed by philosophers; rather they are defined by whatever offends significant numbers of citizens to the point of complaining to their congressmen. Since there is a wide variance in what upsets people, and since many people don't consider pragmatism or even the nature of the world when they decide what to object to, the ethical system that arises from their collective opinions is a self-contradictory mess that is about as workable as a reassembled chicken. Don't take that as a crap on democracy. It's better than the alternatives, but you have to accept that democracy isn't designed to arrive at wise policy. It's a safeguard against very objectionable policy. And that means that some needful, yet abhorrent, things simply cannot be done within the system. You can add torture to eugenics, licensing parents, scavenging felons for parts, dropping a FAM on the Irani Majles, and all the other plans for a better future that would work if only we could get 95% of the electorate to man up.

33 The government officials Murray is attacking are pro-torture, but they have to pretend not to be, because torture is still illegal under British law. Don't take my word for it - Google it. Setting aside all the moral arguments against torture... Torture doesn't work because it causes more problems than it solves. I agree that if you interned and tortured every Muslim in Britain and the US you might find some information that would help stop a terrorist attack. You would also create a huge amount of rage and resentment which would massively fuel terrorism. If you allow the torture of suspected terrorists, it's inevitable that you're going to torture innocent people - a suspect is, by definition, someone who has not yet been found guilty. If you torture innocent people, you create grievances. Legitimate grievances all too often find illegitimate, disproportionate and irrational expression. If you create enough grievances, you create terrorism. It's just the way the world works. You commit an injustice, the victims will want cruel, bloody and irrational "revenge". Some experts (google "the power of nightmares") have argued that Islamic terrorism (which kills far more people in the Middle East than it does elsewhere in the world) is partly the product of the systematic repression committed by the governments of Egypt and Saudi Arabia from the 1950s onwards. They created several generations of brutalised, rage-filled monsters, desperate for revenge - just as Islam Karimov is now doing in Uzbekistan. That's what happens when you torture people, and that's why torture is a bad idea.

34 Agent Smith says to Factcheck: the answer is steak.

35 Yes, the Middle East dictators have created "brutalised, rage-filled monsters", but it's not just the torture or oppression itself. It's that they successfully lead them to believe that someone else is at fault for their oppression and pain. And Dave: I'm aware of what was found in Fallujah and elsewhere. I know that they employ some pretty wicked torture techniques of their own. But these are not the ones they film and send to al-Jazeera. I was only bringing up those they kidnap for the purpose of getting them to beg their countries of origin to withdraw troops or to elicit funds for their release and when that fails, get them to admit to crimes they did not commit to justify killing them in whatever manner they want. While unfortunately so far, most of them are happy to beg their countries to withdraw and would do so without torture or threats, in the end they also admit to crimes of being apostates and colluding with the enemy ... all without physical torture. I was just trying to show the difference between us and them. They have a reputation of outright killing their abductees - or not. It's their upredictability that always elicits a confession of some kind from these televised abductees that is almost never truthful. Human nature is complex. Even though the abductee knows there is a 99% certainty they are going to die, hope still remains, and they'll do anything, say anything to stave off their demise. On the other hand, our detainees know they are not going to be outright killed, unless of course a rogue agent on our side does this by accident or not, which thankfully is very rare and without government sanction. They would, through heavy indoctrination and training, prefer to be outright killed because they fear very much that they will break under torture and give out information. I'm probably not communicating myself very well, but I'm trying.

36 Only a liberal could excuse and apolgise for Saddam and Castro, et al, who are known to commit the most heinous atrocities imaginable, yet screech like banshees when an American has to pressure a terrorist for information to save innocent lives. Liberals unconditionally support the murder of innocent people, and all need to be killed.

37 Agent Smith factcheck may be a vegan. Check your databases - and try the produce section.

38 Agent Smith's brain is from the produce section. The cabbage between his ears means he is in a constant vegetative state.

39 It's not the TORTURE that gains viable information . . but the THREAT of torture. And unless you occasionally torture (or at least make lots of people believe you do) that threat is very hollow. As far as the whiners about "Farming it out" . . so be it . . can they actually prove any of it happened? Just like Newsweek and their tracking of a specific BBJ or unmarked 737 . . who and what was in that plane as it flitted about Europe and the Middle East? They may speculate, but so far the CIA hasn't ponied up any passenger lists. Nor have anybody else, just lots of speculation. There's a lot of rumors about a lot of things, but I haven't seen enough proof about any of it to show that it has actually happened. And if it did, I don't think it happened as often as it should've!

40 Large: So your argument is to torture people, unless someone can actually prove it. Humanitarian award?

41 All you liberal Brits need to go to Powerlineblog.com and scroll down to Threats to Democracy and read Mark Steyn's story. If you have the balls, which I doubt.

42 Agent Jones says Jesusland Joe rejected steak and went for sausage instead.

43 I'll make sausage out of you retarded agents! Why don't you go read Mark Steyn's story, you stooge? You would learn something.

44 Unfortunately New Criterion is having technical difficulties, so the Steyn and Kimball articles aren't currently accessible. Hope it gets cleared up soon. I disagree with their analysis only in the sense that I think what we're seeing is the end of Liberalism 2.x and the emergence of Liberalism 3.x (and by "liberalism" I don't mean the social demoscratic left). The transition will be profound, ending up in a place that essentially resolves all of the left's objections without employing any of their solutions. None, nada, nichts, zero, null set. And now, for something completely different...

45 Unfortunately New Criterion is having technical difficulties, so the Steyn and Kimball articles aren't currently accessible. Hope it gets cleared up soon. I disagree with their analysis only in the sense that I think what we're seeing is the end of Liberalism 2.x and the emergence of Liberalism 3.x (and by "liberalism" I don't mean the social demoscratic left). The transition will be profound, ending up in a place that essentially resolves all of the left's objections without employing any of their solutions. None, nada, nichts, zero, null set. And now, for something completely different...